They didn't sleep together just to beat Akio, any more then Anthy slept with Corwin just to have a child. Since Corwin and Utena met, their relationship has been evolving and changing, and as a cornerstone of both their lives, Anthys feelings also evolved and changed. The fact that Corwin could gain her love, just as Utena did in the Lost Tournement? It wasn't poor writing, it wasn't contrieved. It was right.

When Akio made his 'offer' to Corwin, it was intended, in my opinion, as nothing more then a cruel way to inform the Trinity that he had returned, that he was more powerful then ever. But at the same time, that he was still unable to escape his twisted nature, by jabbing at the 'wound' in Corwins heart.

Anthy already loved Corwin. The fact that she would trust him, care for him enough to bear his child - Which, let's be honest here, would be no small thing for a woman who suffered so much at the ones of another man she once loved - proves that. She has known since the day Corwin became Pillar that Utena and Corwin loved each other deeply. And having seen Akio use that love to hurt them both, how could she not take action?

Interlude at Vortigern's Lake No. 2 in C (For Today) is about Anthy taking action. About the conclusion of her years of effort to ensure that love would prevail. It is, in my mind, one of the finest chapters of Undocumented Features.

When I first read that story, I was at my parents home for Christmas. My parents don't have the internet. I read it on the tiny screen of an old mobile phone that only displayed text... and it was worth it for those last words.

"This will be a good life. Damn good."

Thus, I can only tell you what my thoughts were on my first and only(so far. Following the annotations devotedly, and saving the stuff to disk for offline reading) going through the story. And, with rereading the annotations involved, I've noticed my opinions haven't changed.

I mean, here he's just affirmed the one great love of his life with an act of staggering heroism, and it costs him the only prize he really wants? That's like a Hideaki Anno plot. It's not the way I want my worlds to work.

I read NXE a year after I finished a ton of UF because someone assured me you WEREN'T that kind of writer and that the NXE world wasn't a pointless exercise of resisting the inevitability of fate. Thus, at the time, this scene seemed slightly....off. Though in a sense, his absolution of that seemingly crushing paradox(at the time) seemed to mitigate it, I wondered slightly. Just slightly though. After all, it was seemingly the final sacrifice in a long line of them that...well, there seemed to be no OVERT prize(yeah, that godhood thing. Small change.) All he got was to see Utena perfectly happy. To witness it from the outside. Even in hindsight, the feeling of sacrifice("he loves her enough, he's willing to lose her forever", to use your words) is still intact, unless we deliberately take it into a meta viewpoint.

Fortunately, Anthy is wiser than I am, and it wasn't long before I began to realize that this wasn't the end at all. Indeed, with her finally back on the stage and able to contribute, it was, in a way, only the beginning.

This story(Interlude on Titan) hammered away my doubts as of the end of Symphony 2. Corwin loves Utena. It may seem to be impossible for that to be, but he does. He is willing to be the -father- of his love and her wife's child, because they(and more importantly she) want to have one. And he does it with chivalry intact. No one ever suggested that Utena be the mother(I'm operating off memory here, so bear with me any minor errors :), though I have no doubt all of them were thinking about it at least somewhat. But still...he did it for her. And that act of love is what -earned- him a reward, because it showed the depth of his love for Utena to Anthy, who was, indeed, the pivotal person in this triangle.

And so, all Akio did? Sped things up. He took his worst possible shot at the love there, one dipped in the venom of half-truths that he so excels with, and it backfired spectacularly. He didn't sunder their love. He made it stronger than it ever was. His attempt to weaken them instead accomplished the opposite. All that he really did was force Anthy to step out of the patient, considerate form and take action on this point, much like he's done before. It fit so well because he STILL acts like Anthy is how she used be, and will just remain in the backround and not resist him directly. And thus, his plan is undone because that is exactly what his cruelty to her has taught her that there are times where she must do so.

And some might claim that Anthy's weakened for just falling in love with Corwin because he fell in love with Utena. They're wrong. The only difference is that Corwin had to catch up with Anthy(as seen in Interlude on Titan). She's fallen in love with a man who, essentially, reminds her of all the GOOD things about her brother. Because everything up to Interlude at Vortigern's Lake from Corwin's perspective was about one thing: sacrifice. Not sacrifice in the name of some overarching abstract good. Sacrifice for the one he loved, unconditionally. Expecting nothing in return, but willing to do so because of that same love. Anthy fell in love with that, from the moment Corwin accepted(as far as she could tell at the time)the eternal servitude of becoming the Pillar, to when he agreed to help them have a child. He's a prince that fights not for the prize, but for the cause, and is it any wonder Anthy fell in love with someone so similar in his own way to both her husband and her brother, two people she loved with all of her heart?

No, I don't think you screwed it up at all. Perhaps unintentionally, you laid the groundwork that made it WORK better than planning for Corwin to be with Utena at the end. You did good, damn good. And if anyone choses not to see that....it's their opinion. But in my opinion, they're wrong.

I'm going to be honest here. I found that the whole tone of S4 to be rather different to the other three Symphonies. This was a little jarring, I'll admit, as I was reading through them all in one go. But I enjoyed it. I was cheering for C and U when they finally got round to it, because it was one of those things that was screaming to take place for ages. And considering the Anthy thing, it was needed to reset the balance. Mind you, since the characters are effectively marrying each other... that's going to be a rather interesting situation, but not my place to say.

Anyway- he's wrong. Maybe the tone is different, and, as other people have suggested, the whole Utena/Corwin thing was contrived... but getting a story to flow naturally in the directions you want it without a bit of contrivance is like herding cats on speed with a toothbrush and your voice alone.
____________________

"It's difficult keeping up with the cross-continuity, but I think Cosmouse just gave The Saturnian Scraphunter his Ultimate Pacifier to use against Galactapuss..."

However, when I went back and read things in order, it became something more - I think that S4 is where we see all these characters who, regardless of if they were original creations or appropriations, really grow into their own and hit stride. A ton of the payoffs from the earlier movements hit, and all the characters seem to gel just a little bit more, especially as the Symphony hits home. That's part of that changing tone - the characters all got older, they all changed a bit, and we see them deal with some pretty severe challenges.

Were some of the relationship bits surprising? Kinda, to me, because I was never and RGU fan, so I didn't know about all the Miki/Juri backstory, but you sure as hell built the Kaitlyn/Miki and Kaitlyn/Juri stuff very, very well, and you'd been building up the Anthy/Corwin/Kozue/Utena situation the entire SOS arc, so I thought it was inevitable, and had been gradually getting paid off all the way to back in S3, and you still took the entiriety of S4 to make the final payoffs. Liza/Kurt/Azalynn was a tad out of the blue, but hey, that's love sometimes, and you made it work pretty well in the later appearances.

I'm 99% sure I'm rambling, so I'm gonna make myself wrap it up: It did change, a bit, from the earlier Symphonies, but that's not a bad thing - as much as anything you could put it down to the writing staff getting a bit older, craftier, and experienced too. I certainly never felt any problems or letdowns, and if we all hated it so much, then why are we all happily waiting for the next chunk of Symphony 5?

I should've noted that last night, but I was a bit preoccupied (and tired).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Thought it was proceeding just fine, myself.

It was goddamned brilliant and it moved me to tears.

'Nuff said.

-z

(1) I enjoyed this arc thoroughly.

(2) People's tastes vary. Sometimes they even change over time. But you'll never get everyone to agree on anything. (I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks that Lois McMaster Bujold is a hack.)

(3) Even the greatest writers throw out an occasional clunker, though I don't think this was one. (Can anybody go back in time and keep Heinlein from writing The Cat Who Walks Through Walls? Please?)

Frankly, the only stories in UF that I haven't enjoyed were the ones that dealt with Noriko's descent into madness. But that was because they were tragic, not because of any flaw in the storytelling. (And yes, I know they weren't written by Gryphon, but they're part of the UF universe.)

I think Wakaba's reaction at the end of Vortigen's Lake No. 2 summed things up perfectly - Utena overcame all the trials, scars and bad memories of the Tournament and Akio's manipulations and was able to find love on her own terms. Yes, Anthy had to push her, but that was only to make her look beyond her own limits, ones that she had imposed on herself because it was what she thought was expected of her. That and I can see it was Anthy's way of thumbing her nose at her brother...

You keep writing them, I'll keep reading them.

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

Could we maybe get a link of some sort pointing at what Laudre said? I'd like to review it myself before deciding how to vote... :)

--sofaspud
--

I went and looked at Laudre's comments.

I'm in the "He doesn't get it" camp, but... Dude's allowed his opinions.

Nowhere is it written that thou shalt like every word the chief and crew type. Personally, there are some parts that I prefer not to re-read and there are some that I favour more others.

My own two pence on the C-U-A triad. It was only on this read through, and thanks to the annotations, that it sunk in how long Anthy has wanted said relationship (for various values of wanted). Originally, I only started seeing the signs in For Tomorrow. They were pretty much neon holosigns at that point. Now I can see the signs right from Anthy's arrival in Asgard.

Politeness matters, dipshits.

I don't care if you feel strongly about the issue. I don't care if it's emotionally charged for you. If you can't communicate your point in a calm, well-mannered fashion, you might as well go home now. Failing that, pick up a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and pay attention to the tips it offers. Maybe you don't care if Gryphon is your friend, but you sure care about influencing him to see your point. Or if you don't, you're just wanking off in public, in Gryphon's space, and that's just downright inappropriate.

Of course, none of that's gonna help overly much if you are also wrong in addition to being rude, the way Laudre is. Other people have made most of the points that I wanted to make, but I will say this: There is a world of difference between manipulating people and giving advice (even rather forceful advice), trusting in the love you share and the knowledge they have that you would never willingly hurt them to make everything work out.

In other words, intentions matter, as much as actions do. Sometimes life hands you a curveball. Other times everything works itself out for you. But it's what you chose to believe in and chose to stand for that will damn or redeem you.