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Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Gryphon
Charter Member
17042 posts |
Aug-20-15, 08:15 PM (EDT) |
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"a musing on online war gaming in general"
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Imagine if the Successor States in the MechWarrior universe, or the governments of the world, conducted their wars the way they're portrayed as doing in MechWarrior Online or Armored Warfare. In both games, you play as an independent military contractor (read: mercenary)* who owns/operates his/her own armored fighting vehicle. And fair enough, you may say; mercenaries are hardly a concept confined to the realms of fiction. Which is true, but the way the mercs of MechWarrior Online and Armored Warfare go about their business would be hilariously ineffective in real life. They aren't mercenary units, they're just small crowds of mutually independent 'Mechs/tanks whose operators are complete strangers to one another, who are all given the same objective and turned loose to... see what happens. Any cooperation, coordination, or application of actual tactics that subsequently occurs is, with the (occasional) exception of player platoons and the (even more occasional) spontaneous team-up, purely accidental. That does seem to be more or less the way certain Third World brushfire conflicts of the Cold War era were conducted, admittedly, and old-timey BattleTech players may recognize certain aspects of the Capellan Confederation's approach to military operations, but generally speaking I just can't see the technique catching on. :) --G. *This is as opposed to World of $WEAPONS, where they make no attempt whatsoever to explain how or why there are massed battles involving the indiscriminately mixed tanks or ships of various nations. It's just happening. :) -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
303 posts |
Aug-21-15, 03:13 AM (EDT) |
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1. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #0
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>*This is as opposed to World of $WEAPONS, where >they make no attempt whatsoever to explain how or why there are massed >battles involving the indiscriminately mixed tanks or ships of various >nations. It's just happening. :)This is actually one of the reasons I haven't played Tanks or Warplanes, or, for that matter, War Thunder. At least Warships in beta, which excuses things for now. Why oh why oh why would you mix things up like that? There are enough tanks and planes and PLAYERS than it shouldn't be difficult to put things on 'you choose one side to play, we'll mix other on the same side in, and put another side against you', be those Sovs, Brits, Yanks, Krauts, what-have-you. It bugs me bad enough in Warships where the game isn't done, and several sides are MISSING... ...! Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers! |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
17042 posts |
Aug-21-15, 01:27 PM (EDT) |
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3. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #1
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>This is actually one of the reasons I haven't played Tanks or >Warplanes, or, for that matter, War Thunder. At least Warships in >beta, which excuses things for now. Why oh why oh why would you mix >things up like that?... Yeah, I think this may call for a "lighten up, Francis" from the congregation. The Wargaming games don't have a story or pretend that there is some reason for that (like Team Fortress has that comically flimsy-on-purpose story about the competing gravel companies), because they aren't and don't claim to be simulations of any actual war. They're just big ol' arcadey arena battle games, and restricting players' choice of what equipment to use for the sake of a realism that the game does not otherwise embrace would be arbitrary, annoying, and ultimately pointless. It would repel far more players than it would attract. That said, War Thunder does have a "historical battles" mode in which players are restricted in what they can use - for instance, in their simulation of the Battle of Kursk, you can be on the German side or the Soviet side, and you have to use their equipment,* and their Battle of Britain sim (which was running as an event last weekend) is limited to British and German aircraft (since there obviously was no tank battle there). I don't play that mode myself because I'm a Dirty Casual, but it's there. World of Tanks also fooled around with the Historical Battles concept for a while, but they couldn't get it to work and abandoned it. Balancing the teams was too much of a hassle, because real battles (like Kursk) tend to be a bit one-sided. Somebody had enough of an advantage to win them in real life, after all. They had to do things like let one team be twice the size of the other but limited to worse equipment, and things like that, and there just weren't enough hardcore history-oriented players to make that kind of thing worth doing. Their audience is attuned to casual tank mayhem, and even some players who had been saying "gee, historical battles would sure be great" were saying "I stand corrected, make it go away" by the end of the test. :) All of which is a long way of saying that this is a "looking for meat in the produce aisle" situation, and if that's not a detail that you can adjust your Weltanschauung to overlook, you're probably right in avoiding those games, 'cause with the exception of the specific historical mode in War Thunder, that's not what they're for. Nothin' wrong with that, but it's where you stand. --G. *note that War Thunder actually models a lot of Lend-Lease and/or captured-from-the-enemy equipment - there's a Sherman and a Soviet KV-1 in the German tech tree, for instance - so there is some latitude here, but only historically precedented latitude. :) -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
17042 posts |
Sep-01-15, 10:29 PM (EDT) |
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11. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #3
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-15 AT 10:29 PM (EDT) >they aren't and don't claim to be simulations of >any actual war. They're just big ol' arcadey arena battle games, and >restricting players' choice of what equipment to use for the sake of a >realism that the game does not otherwise embrace would be arbitrary, >annoying, and ultimately pointless. It would repel far more players >than it would attract. Alternately - and this just occurred to me at random earlier today: The World of $WEAPON games and War Thunder Arcade Mode are set in Valhalla. They're not proper wars, just big ol' semi-recreational Einherjar free-for-alls. Also neatly explains why there are so many commonly available tanks in World of Tanks that either never existed at all, or only existed as one or two prototypes; and why there can be more than two Tenryū-class ships (or more than four Kongō-class ones, or what have you) in World of Warships matches. In Valhalla, you can have as many Porsche Tigers as you want. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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ebony14
Member since Jul-11-11
257 posts |
Aug-21-15, 09:08 AM (EDT) |
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2. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #0
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Sounds like waging war through bar brawl. With giant robots. Which might be entertaining to watch from a safe distance (say, the closest Lagrange Point), but a terrible way to take or hold any territory. Of course, this is sort of what PvP is. Throw a bunch of people that only marginally are associated with each other into a combat, with inconsistent gear and training, no real command structure, and minimal orders, and see what happens. Is it any wonder no one holds territory in those games for more than 30 minutes at a time? Ebony the Black Dragon "Life is like an anole. Sometimes it's green. Sometimes it's brown. But it's always a small Caribbean lizard." |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
17042 posts |
Aug-21-15, 01:28 PM (EDT) |
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4. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #2
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>Sounds like waging war through bar brawl. With giant robots. Which >might be entertaining to watch from a safe distance (say, the closest >Lagrange Point), but a terrible way to take or hold any territory. > >Of course, this is sort of what PvP is. Throw a bunch of people that >only marginally are associated with each other into a combat, with >inconsistent gear and training, no real command structure, and minimal >orders, and see what happens.I have to give Team Fortress 2 props for recognizing this glaring flaw in the game's premise and, rather than just ignoring it, choosing instead to mount a gargantuan lampshade upon it. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
17042 posts |
Aug-22-15, 02:38 PM (EDT) |
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7. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #6
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>To be fair, the Community Warfare mode helps with this, since it >requires two full teams (ideally from pre-made units on voice comms, >etx) and has battles with defined roles, objectives, and opportunities >for attackers and defenders to make a big difference in holding or >claiming a planet. But it's also not conducive to just dropping in and >playing a round or two - the average MWO match including matchmaking >is something like 20 minutes. The average CW match is 2 hours. I've been wondering, given the World of Tanks-ish nature of the gameplay, why there is a screen in the 'Mech bay for declaring allegiance to a Successor State (or a Clan, if you're a filthy traitor to all human decency). And intrigued to note that there are two different ways of declaring yourself for the Federated Commonwealth, which makes me wonder if they're planning to implement the FedCom Civil War one of these days. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
17042 posts |
Aug-22-15, 05:12 PM (EDT) |
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9. "RE: a musing on online war gaming in general"
In response to message #8
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>As to FedCom...if they do I suspect it's going to be a long ways from >now, or run as an event like Tukayyid was. Well, if, as the website claims, MechWarrior Online's plotline advances in real time, then yeah, it'll be a while, given that the game was set in 3050 at the time of its launch and the FedCom Civil War is in, if my memory of the dates in MechWarrior 4 serves me, 3066. I'll say this for them, if they are thinking of doing it, they're optimistic about the game's longevity. :) --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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version 3.3 © 2001
Eyrie Productions,
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Benjamin
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