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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-13-16, 01:23 AM (EDT)
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"A shadowy flight, etc."
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-16 AT 01:56 AM (EDT)
 
Y'know, apropos of nothing, it occurred to me just now the thing all these attempted remakes of Knight Rider have gotten wrong. Well, I mean, they've gotten a lot of things wrong, but the big one—particularly with the big-ticket network revival from a few years ago—is pretty simple. They keep trying to update the car.

See, the thing is, it's pretty obvious from the context of the original show that the Knight 2000 was not actually supposed to be a modified Pontiac Firebird within the story; characters routinely react to it as something completely unique, that they've never seen the likes of before and cannot identify. So why change it for a present-day, or even near-future, remake? I may be biased, but I don't think the '82 Firebird's styling has dated particularly hard, not compared with almost any other non-supercar from the 1980s you might care to name. If anything, the cleanness of the prop car's lines, with all the badging and trim shaved off, still looks a bit futuristic. That generation of the GM F-body was far enough ahead of its time, styling-wise, that it went almost immediately timeless.

Now, sure, I understand that in commercial terms you're not going to be pulling in the big product placement dollars from Pontiac nowadays if you use a hero car based on the shape of a 1982 Firebird, particularly on account of Pontiac no longer exists. But speaking strictly in terms of the art design of the series, why would you make KITT in a remake anything else? Update the electronics package in the cockpit, sure, ordinary cars have better displays in them now than the prop car had in the '80s (although not anywhere near as many cool-ass buttons and readouts, keep those). And maybe 86 the beige interior, but that's just me. But the body style? Those awesome disc wheels? You're never going to come up with a hero car that looks any slicker or more understatedly mysterious than the original. It's just not going to happen. Especially if it also transforms into a pickup truck.

That said, I'm really sad that Pontiac is gone, because it means we'll never have the Firebird version of the new Camaro (or the new new Camaro, which is hot), and that's a real shame. I had a Camaro in high school and I loved it, which you would think would make me Brand Loyal, but I always thought the Firebird was the better-looking of the two—very slightly some years, by a wide margin in others.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Mercutio Jul-13-16 1
     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-13-16 2
         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Mercutio Jul-13-16 3
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. pjmoyermoderator Jul-13-16 4
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. BobSchroeck Jul-13-16 9
                 RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-13-16 11
                     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. BobSchroeck Jul-14-16 17
                 RE: A shadowy flight, etc. TheOtherSean Jul-15-16 29
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-13-16 10
                 RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Mercutio Jul-13-16 15
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. JFerio Jul-13-16 12
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Wiregeek Jul-14-16 22
                 RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Pasha Jul-14-16 23
                     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Wiregeek Jul-15-16 26
                 RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-14-16 24
                     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Wiregeek Jul-15-16 27
                         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-15-16 28
  RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Peter Eng Jul-13-16 5
     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Mercutio Jul-13-16 6
         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Peter Eng Jul-13-16 7
         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. JFerio Jul-13-16 13
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. VoidRandom Jul-15-16 25
     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-13-16 8
         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Mercutio Jul-13-16 14
     RE: A shadowy flight, etc. drakensis Jul-14-16 16
         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Gryphonadmin Jul-14-16 18
             RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Meridias Jul-14-16 19
                 RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Lime2K Jul-14-16 20
         RE: A shadowy flight, etc. Peter Eng Jul-14-16 21

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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Jul-13-16, 01:38 AM (EDT)
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1. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #0
 
   It also helps that there have been a lot of advances in TV-making these days that would... well... I'm a big fan of all that eighties trashy action TV (I liked Airwolf for gods sake) but even at the time it all looked very... washed out. I kept meaning to find out the technical reasons for that but never did, but regardless, the Knight 2000 would look hot as shit in crisp HD colors.

(Sidebar: I really wish people would stop making 70s and 80s era period pieces that look as they though they were shot on 70s and 80s era film. There's a place for that, but I'd really like to see those eras as the people living in them saw them sometimes, full of garish, riotous colors, instead of the matte finish you get looking at them through film of the time period.)

>That generation of the GM F-body

I feel like we lost a sentence here?

> (or the new new Camaro, which is hot)

The 2017? I've been eyeing it because I'm going to be buying a new car in the next six months, and it is indeed smoking... but I can't justify spending 28 large on a car. Especially since I'm told you really need the manual to fully enjoy driving a Camaro (or any other sports car) and I don't drive stick and have no real desire to learn.

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-13-16, 02:05 AM (EDT)
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2. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #1
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-16 AT 02:08 AM (EDT)
 
>(Sidebar: I really wish people would stop making 70s and 80s era
>period pieces that look as they though they were shot on 70s and 80s
>era film. There's a place for that, but I'd really like to see those
>eras as the people living in them saw them sometimes, full of garish,
>riotous colors, instead of the matte finish you get looking at them
>through film of the time period.)

That would be pretty cool, although HD and particuarly beyond-HD production can go the other way and end up making everything seem like it's made of injection-molded plastic. (Looking at you, Hobbit movies.) But then the '80s were made of injection-molded plastic, so maybe that would be just the thing.

I'd love a modern-production-values revamp of Airwolf. I'm a little puzzled that it hasn't happened, I mean, all that sinister-government-agency-is-sinister bullshit they lumbered the Knight Rider remake with so uselessly would fit right in there. Airwolf was always about a sinister government agency that was sinister.

>>That generation of the GM F-body
>
>I feel like we lost a sentence here?

Oops. Not sure how that happened. "was far enough ahead of its time, styling-wise, that it went almost immediately timeless."

>> (or the new new Camaro, which is hot)
>
>The 2017? I've been eyeing it because I'm going to be buying a new car
>in the next six months, and it is indeed smoking... but I can't
>justify spending 28 large on a car. Especially since I'm told you
>really need the manual to fully enjoy driving a Camaro (or any other
>sports car) and I don't drive stick and have no real desire to learn.

That's true, but not as true now as it used to be. The car I just bought (which I suppose I should introduce sometime soon) has a DSG gearbox in it, which is a sort of... automatic manual, I guess you'd call it... and it's not quite as much fun to drive as a proper stick, but it's miles better than the fluid-link slushboxes of old. Modern computerized automatics, even a properly trained CVT, can also be a pretty decent experience nowadays.

The real downside to the Camaro in the Northeast is that, inexplicably, Chevrolet still isn't offering an all-wheel-drive version. (I say inexplicably because it's based on the GM Alpha platform, the same as the Cadillac ATS, and that is available with AWD, so why not the Camaro?) There again, modern computerized rear-wheel-drive cars, with their elaborate traction and stability control systems, are not the automatic ticket to the ditch that RWD sports cars of old were in inclement weather, but they still take a particular set of skills, skills acquired over the course of a long career, skills that—no! Sorry. Skills, anyway, that most drivers nowadays don't have and aren't really interested in developing.

That said, I came within a handsbreadth or so of buying one recently; about the only reason I didn't (apart from a certain mistrust of post-bankruptcy GM's quality control) was because, though I'm confident that between my own abilities and those of the newfangled cars, I could've kept myself alive commuting to grad school in the winter with one, my parents weren't so sanguine. And though they are not technically the bosses of 43-year-old me, why make them worry? (Besides, I ended up getting such a good deal on the car that I bought, it would have been literally stupid to buy any other one. More on this later, probably.)

Anyway, the next time I'm up for a new car will be right in the sweet spot for my midlife crisis, so. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
748 posts
Jul-13-16, 10:42 AM (EDT)
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3. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #2
 
  
>I'd love a modern-production-values revamp of Airwolf. I'm a
>little puzzled that it hasn't happened, I mean, all that
>sinister-government-agency-is-sinister bullshit they lumbered the
>Knight Rider remake with so uselessly would fit right in
>there. Airwolf was always about a sinister government
>agency that was sinister.

My completely speculative guess would probably be budget. Genre shows, in general, are only surviving these days on cable, and even critically acclaimed ones with wide exposure tend to be very low-rated. People have a higher expectation for a show specifically pitching itself as an action show these days than they did back in the A-Team and Magnum, PI days, and that requires network-level money. And the networks don't much like genre shows. Agents of SHIELD needed the entire weight of the biggest film franchise of the 21st century behind it to even get a shot.

Someone pitching an Airwolf remake would have to have a very, very good answer to this question: "Why should we give you all this effects money when we could just make another drama? People love dramas and things rarely need to blow up in a costly manner."

There might be space for it as an animated show, although people sort of expect those to be comedies or funny in some manner. Archer has had a successful run on F/X as what is, basically, an action show... but Archer is a spoof, not a straight spy show.

>That's true, but not as true now as it used to be. The car I
>just bought (which I suppose I should introduce sometime soon)

I would enjoy this story.

>has a
>DSG gearbox in it, which is a sort of... automatic manual, I guess
>you'd call it... and it's not quite as much fun to drive as a proper
>stick, but it's miles better than the fluid-link slushboxes of old.

Some of my dads friends, who are getting on in years, are eyeing those for comfort reasons; they get wore out constantly wrestling with a clutch pedal.

>That said, I came within a handsbreadth or so of buying one recently;
>about the only reason I didn't (apart from a certain mistrust of
>post-bankruptcy GM's quality control) was because, though I'm
>confident that between my own abilities and those of the newfangled
>cars, I could've kept myself alive commuting to grad school in the
>winter with one, my parents weren't so sanguine. And though they are
>not technically the bosses of 43-year-old me, why make them worry?
>(Besides, I ended up getting such a good deal on the car that I
>bought, it would have been literally stupid to buy any other one.
>More on this later, probably.)

I would really like to know about this, because I need to buy a new car sometime soon and I'm having a devil of a time getting good info. So I'll take whatever I can get from people I trust.

Like... I'm not too worried about getting a decent price, or driving off with a lemon. There are a million and one resources for that nowadays, and it's very hard to buy a new car these days that is truly fucked up as a matter of design. But... hrrm.

My current ride is a 2001 Saturn with 150,000 miles on the clock. It was never, ever a high-performance vehicle, and it has the usual problems and idiosyncrasies you'd expect from a car that old. But for those who don't know, the old Saturns, especially the SL line... man, you CANNOT kill them. Mine has all-original suspension, the transmission has never given me a lick of trouble, etc. I'm only on my second muffler. It's also easy as hell to service yourself, but parts are getting harder to find. I'm not a car guy, but I'm willing to attempt any repair that doesn't involve me needing to actually jack the thing up; the number of things you can service with a set of socket wrenches, a free weekend, and helpful bald gentleman in overalls on Youtube is surprisingly high.

But I've been shopping around for new cars, reading reviews, working Google to the best of my ability... and it is real, real hard for me to find the sort of information that is important to me specifically.

Car and Driver are the worst offenders here. Those guys? Are snobs. It's all about performance, performance, performance, with that metric consistently defined against high-end sportscars. They seem offended by the very idea of an economy car. The folks at Edmonds at least periodically go "hey, we understand that a lot of you are working class. Here's a list of cars that cost fifteen grand or less and will provide value for that money." Whereas Car and Driver, if you present them with a fifteen thousand dollar budget, will steer you towards seven or eight year old cars with close to a hundred thousand miles on the clock because of their performance profiles, and react with polite horror to the very idea of buying a Nissan Versa.

I care, to a certain extent, about performance. I don't want a car I have to wrestle with all the time. But that's most cars these days. No, what I want to know about is reliability. How robust is this model? Does it have a history of developing interestingly expensive transmission diseases about fifty thousand miles? Will it start drinking oil like an alcoholic drinks Popov? Does it have persistent alignment problems that weren't solved in the 2013 redesign? I live in the northeast, which means snow and salt and water; how protected is the undercarriage from that, are vital components exposed in such a way as to render them particular vulnerable to degradation? How easy is it to do basic service; some modern cars require an archeological expedition just to get to the battery and swap it out, or a recessed oil filter you don't have a prayer of getting off without a filter gun.

And that information is hard to suss out in-between all the beating off over track stats. Some of us don't get a new car every three years, you guys. And don't even get me started over the current vogue for low-mileage leases for well-qualified buyers. Some of us have... blemishes... on our credit.

Okay, rant over.

-Merc
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pjmoyermoderator
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Jul-13-16, 10:54 AM (EDT)
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4. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #3
 
   >I care, to a certain extent, about performance. I don't want a car I
>have to wrestle with all the time. But that's most cars these days.
>No, what I want to know about is reliability. How robust is this
>model? Does it have a history of developing interestingly expensive
>transmission diseases about fifty thousand miles? Will it start
>drinking oil like an alcoholic drinks Popov? Does it have persistent
>alignment problems that weren't solved in the 2013 redesign? I live in
>the northeast, which means snow and salt and water; how protected is
>the undercarriage from that, are vital components exposed in such a
>way as to render them particular vulnerable to degradation? How easy
>is it to do basic service; some modern cars require an archeological
>expedition just to get to the battery and swap it out, or a recessed
>oil filter you don't have a prayer of getting off without a filter
>gun.
>
>And that information is hard to suss out in-between all the beating
>off over track stats. Some of us don't get a new car every three
>years, you guys. And don't even get me started over the current vogue
>for low-mileage leases for well-qualified buyers. Some of us have...
>blemishes... on our credit.

My biggest recommendation would be to dig out the most recent issues of Consumer Reports, especially their most recent "all-car" issue. The latter (and the yearly 'buyer's guide' book) has tables with the last 5 years of owner performance reports for all available cars which can help you pick out trends in what you're interested in.

--- Philip






Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"
Fandoms -- Fanart -- Fan Meta Discussions


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BobSchroeck
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Jul-13-16, 06:33 PM (EDT)
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9. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #3
 
   >My current ride is a 2001 Saturn with 150,000 miles on the clock. It
>was never, ever a high-performance vehicle, and it has the usual
>problems and idiosyncrasies you'd expect from a car that old. But for
>those who don't know, the old Saturns, especially the SL line... man,
>you CANNOT kill them.

Seconded. Until Saturn went out of business, that was all we bought for nigh onto twenty years. Which meant two cars, both SL1s. Whose total combined mileage as of 2014 was somewhere in the vicinity of 0.6 million miles.

The only systematic problem we ever had was that our '94 burned through alternators every year or two for the first several years we had it. The second or third time that happened, I mentioned this to the customer relations folks at the dealership, and how it was a big hit on our finances every time (most of them happening post-warranty). Two weeks later we got a check from Saturn Corporate for the cost of that most recent replacement, and an apologetic letter from a VP. Saturn was a class act in every way, and I still mourn their death in the financial crisis.

-- Bob
(Oh, and the newest, post-Saturn car? Hyundai Sonata, chosen after much research, especially via Consumer's Union. Wonderful car. But it's not a Saturn SL1.)
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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Gryphonadmin
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17938 posts
Jul-13-16, 07:08 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-16 AT 07:08 PM (EDT)
 
>(Oh, and the newest, post-Saturn car? Hyundai Sonata, chosen after
>much research, especially via Consumer's Union. Wonderful car. But
>it's not a Saturn SL1.)

In my recent odyssey of exploration and testing, I tried out a Hyundai Genesis coupe, and I must say it was awful. It was actually the only car I tested in the whole ordeal that felt badly made, even borderline unsafe. I'd never driven a car before in which the steering managed to be both heavy and vague at the same time, the seats were horrible, and the doors made a tinny TV-dinner-tray whack when closed. I'm glad to know their whole product line isn't like that, because I had hopes that Korean cars were no longer the punch lines they were when I was in high school and they first started appearing on the US market (and my father's wife's Kia seems like a nice car).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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BobSchroeck
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Jul-14-16, 09:39 AM (EDT)
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17. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #11
 
   >In my recent odyssey of exploration and testing, I tried out a Hyundai
>Genesis coupe, and I must say it was awful. It was actually the only
>car I tested in the whole ordeal that felt badly made, even borderline
>unsafe.

Ouch. I've never tried the Genesis -- didn't even know it existed until now -- but... ow.

Oh, and a quick return to the Saturn topic for a final testimonial. I was impressed from the start with Saturn's safety features, and recently we got dramatic proof that they were far more than just marketing hype. We loaned our 2002 SL1 last year to a friend who needed a car. (This was after buying the Hyundai.) She put another 25-30K on it, before getting sunglared one morning during her commute and rear-ending the car in front of her. She totaled the Saturn and was able to walk away with only scratches and bruises.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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TheOtherSean
Member since Jul-7-08
219 posts
Jul-15-16, 03:04 PM (EDT)
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29. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #9
 
   >Seconded. Until Saturn went out of business, that was all we bought
>for nigh onto twenty years. Which meant two cars, both SL1s. Whose
>total combined mileage as of 2014 was somewhere in the vicinity of 0.6
>million miles.
>
>The only systematic problem we ever had was that our '94 burned
>through alternators every year or two for the first several years we
>had it.

My first car was a used 1994 Saturn SL1. After owning it about two years, the alternator died while I was driving to anime night, the day after a tornado. Thanks to the power lines downed by the tornado, many traffic lights were not working, which meant traffic chaos. It took nearly two hours for a tow truck to arrive and tow me the 2 miles to the dealer. Two-three years later the replacement alternator died about 35 miles past the warranty mileage.

A few years later I sold it to a friend who used it for another six years or so. It was totaled in a accident caused by clouds of dark smoke from the truck ahead of her temporarily obscuring her car from sight. Somebody rear-ended her. A few years later her replacement car died, and she replace it with.... a used (later model year) Saturn SL1.

--
The Other Sean - Don't accept substitutes!
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?


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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-13-16, 07:04 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-16 AT 07:05 PM (EDT)
 
>I would really like to know about this, because I need to buy a new
>car sometime soon and I'm having a devil of a time getting good info.
>So I'll take whatever I can get from people I trust.

Well, you're in luck, because I just finished a long, rambly post about it over on private-mail. I make no warranty that it will actually contain any useful information, but it's got my honest opinions in it.

>Car and Driver are the worst offenders here. Those guys? Are
>snobs. It's all about performance, performance, performance,
>with that metric consistently defined against high-end sportscars.
>They seem offended by the very idea of an economy car.

Oh man, I know. I noticed that while I was doing my own research. It's like getting cars-for-ordinary-people advice from Top Gear, except without the tongue-in-cheek self-awareness that it isn't in their wheelhouse. (Some of my favorite TG segments were the ones where Clarkson would do as bad a review as humanly possible of an economy car. Particularly the one where he used a Ford Fiesta as a beach assault vehicle during a Royal Marines exercise.)

>And don't even get me started over the current vogue
>for low-mileage leases for well-qualified buyers. Some of us have...
>blemishes... on our credit.

For what it's worth, I had pretty attractive lease offers made to me on at least two different cars (both of them Fords, as it happens, so mileage may vary by manufacturer), and my credit's not perfect either. Not as aggressive as the figures they quote on the TV commercials, but still quite good. I'm wary of leases because they used to be such a punchline in these parts—a stock device for shady dealers to lever money out of people who didn't have it, the automotive finance equivalent of payday loans—but nowadays they're not like that, at least not the ones offered through the manufacturers by main-line franchised dealers. I ended up financing because I didn't buy a leasable car, but would have at least given it serious consideration if I had ended up going with one of the ones I had both lease and finance numbers for.

As for matters like reliability and ease of service, I admit I don't have a lot of data on those fronts for my new car as yet, because I just got it and, thanks to the certified-preowned warranty extension, won't be doing my own work on it for some time. I know what you mean about the various design gotchas out there—the most egregious one I've seen personally in recent years is my mom's 2009 Cadillac SRX4, to change a headlight bulb in which you have to put it up on a lift and remove the front wheel and inner fender on the affected side. Seriously. That's someone at GM deliberately setting out to create business for dealers right there. There's just no way it could be that badly designed by accident, not in this day and age. That's on purpose.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
748 posts
Jul-13-16, 11:08 PM (EDT)
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15. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #10
 
   >>And don't even get me started over the current vogue
>>for low-mileage leases for well-qualified buyers. Some of us have...
>>blemishes... on our credit.
>
>For what it's worth, I had pretty attractive lease offers made to me
>on at least two different cars (both of them Fords, as it happens, so
>mileage may vary by manufacturer), and my credit's not perfect either.
> Not as aggressive as the figures they quote on the TV
>commercials, but still quite good. I'm wary of leases because they
>used to be such a punchline in these parts—a stock device for shady
>dealers to lever money out of people who didn't have it, the
>automotive finance equivalent of payday loans—but nowadays they're
>not like that, at least not the ones offered through the manufacturers
>by main-line franchised dealers.

My primary objection with a lot of lease offers is that they're teasers, especially the hyper-aggressive ones you mention, the ones on TV that have "five grand down" and "you'd better have a FICO score of 800, bitch" hidden in the fine print. Those basically exist to lure people in the door and encourage them to overbuy. I know it seems weird to be irked about that, since "encourage people to overbuy" is one of the bedrock principles of the American car market and has been since before my parents were born, but still.

But leases in general? Yeah, they're pretty okay. My brother and sister-in-law swear by them, because they're the sort of people who want to get a new car every three to five years anyway. So lease deals are phenomenal, because they're fine with having a monthly payment from now until infinity, and it's way lower than it would be if they were financing since they're basically only paying depreciation and sometimes not even that.

That's not me. I've bought two cars in my life and both lasted 10+ years. In part, this is because I've been poor. I'm not poor anymore, but being poor for something like fifteen years leaves its mark on a man and I'm crazy paranoid about assuming debt. When I finally landed a good job and entered the middle class, my family was all "oh, I guess you'll be buying a house and a nice car and going on expensive trips and &c" and I was like "you're all fucking crazy, I will continue living in my perfectly nice apartment and instead use the extra money to pay down debt and max out my 401k."

So yeah. When I pony up the dough for my next ride, we're talking 25% down payment and taking out a 36 instead of 60 month loan and paying that thing off in two years.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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JFerio
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Jul-13-16, 10:12 PM (EDT)
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12. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #3
 
   I will add to the idea that Saturns are unkillable. I had a 2001 Saturn SL myself, around 140,000, and only traded it in last year because of the "Big Oil Adventure", where the drain plug had come loose and I wound up putting about 4 miles on it with no oil in it at all... and the only indication it gave after that this had been significant abuse was the MPG dropping from around 37 to under 30. Seriously, it wasn't giving any indication (noise, power loss, etc) that it was actually going to die, but we still prudently retired it from anything other than the required driving.

My current ride is a 2015 Subaru Impreza, in the manual transmission flavor, and as basic as a modern car gets. I feel like I'm driving a goddamned computer center.</mccoy>

Although what we did when it came time to determine the replacement is I took my husband and a friend to the local big car show where they were showing the new stuff (Denver has a pretty damned sweet one at the convention center in June or July every year), and we sat in over a dozen cars, since one of the car's roles was intended to be "in state road trip with a full back seat of people". The only other car that felt truly usable was the soon-to-be-discontinued Scion Xb. Outside of hauling big stuff, I haven't regretted my decision.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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Wiregeek
Member since Mar-13-14
85 posts
Jul-14-16, 08:11 PM (EDT)
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22. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #3
 
   Personally, I would be very aggrieved if you tried to sell me a 2012 Ford Fiesta again. Or a newer Fiesta - the gearbox is utter trash, and it hasn't improved that I'm aware of.

Now, a Focus, that's something I could test drive.


Out in the driveway, we've got a 2012 Chevy Cruze, it's an alright little car. In the history-since-new of the vehicle, it hasn't had any mechanical problems not covered under warranty, or any worth noting.

There have been more problems caused by the driver not being able to dodge lumber on the highway than anything else.

It's a nice car, boring, conservative. Handsome, too. Comfortable and solid.

Next to it is the 2014? Chevy Volt. I loathe the fucking thing - But it's because I'm biased. It handles and drives pretty good, and it also hasn't had any problems not covered by warranty (aside from the body damage when the ambulance tried to park _in_ it).

Next to that is my 2012 Fiesta. 37mpg 'combined cycle' on the normal commute, 40mpg on long cruises. Something ain't _right_ with the transmission, and it hasn't been since day one. The firmware update helped a bit. Seats are okish, handling is twitchy..

My best friend has a 2015 Dart. I like this little ride. No report on reliability - the designated driver was a coke fiend and an idiot. Plenty of get up and go, decent handling. The car feels heavy, but in a planted sort of way, not a overloaded sort.

That's it for my peer group and late model cars. If I had to buy a car today, I'd be frantically trying to justify a Focus ST - which shows you what kind of guy I am.



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Pasha
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Jul-14-16, 08:21 PM (EDT)
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23. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #22
 
   >
>Next to it is the 2014? Chevy Volt. I loathe the fucking thing - But
>it's because I'm biased. It handles and drives pretty good, and it
>also hasn't had any problems not covered by warranty (aside from the
>body damage when the ambulance tried to park _in_ it).

What is the bias that makes you hate the Volt? I quite like the idea of an electric car that carries it's own generator around.

>My best friend has a 2015 Dart. I like this little ride. No report
>on reliability - the designated driver was a coke fiend and an idiot.
>Plenty of get up and go, decent handling. The car feels heavy, but in
>a planted sort of way, not a overloaded sort.

Which trim level? Also, the '14 was the last year to be able to get the DDCS gearbox in the US, which is annoying, because I love it so very, very much. Also, I love that they squeeze 160 bhp out of a 1.4L engine.

--
-Pasha
"Don't change the subject"
"Too slow, already did."


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Wiregeek
Member since Mar-13-14
85 posts
Jul-15-16, 12:37 PM (EDT)
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26. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #23
 
  
>What is the bias that makes you hate the Volt? I quite like the idea
>of an electric car that carries it's own generator around.

It's a $27,000 car that cost ~$40,000.


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Gryphonadmin
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17938 posts
Jul-14-16, 08:36 PM (EDT)
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24. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #22
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-16 AT 08:41 PM (EDT)
 
>Personally, I would be very aggrieved if you tried to sell me a 2012
>Ford Fiesta again. Or a newer Fiesta - the gearbox is utter trash,
>and it hasn't improved that I'm aware of.

Unless they've dropped whichever transmission option you've got (you mention a firmware update, so I'm guessing it's the automatic) altogether, you're probably right. That kind of thing usually doesn't get a major revamp until and unless the model itself is refreshed, and the current-generation Fiesta is an oooooold platform by modern standards. I think apart from mild facelifts, it's been in production for at least eight years.

That said, I think they do a DSG-type transmission in the Fiesta now (Ford has a different trade name for it—"Powershift", I think—but it seems to be the same sort of dual-clutch robo-manual rig). That might suck less, in the current offerings, than the old-timey 4-speed auto. Or it might be worse! Depends on how good the people who programmed the robo-clutch are. :)

I don't know for sure because I haven't actually driven a Fiesta, though I did get close a few months ago. When I went to pick up the rental car while my CR-Z was in waiting for airbag parts, the guy at first tried to put me in one, because Honda had only agreed to cover the cost of a rental in the same size class as the affected car (so, for instance, if I'd had a CR-V, like they originally thought, I'd have ended up in an Escape or a Nissan Rogue or something). It was... kind of comical. I could actually get into it—just—but the controls weren't what I would really call usable, and there was real uncertainty in my mind as to whether I would be able to get out without damaging anything in the car or on myself. It not only wasn't comfortable, it didn't seem entirely safe.

To his credit, the rental guy was very graceful about it; he considered the situation, concurred with me that if I were going to have a Fiesta I would also need another one for my other foot, and said, "Let's try a Focus, and if that works we'll figure out a way to bill it that keeps Honda happy." Which we did, and it was fine.

I'm quite pleased with the overall package that the current model Focus presents, pleased enough that it was on the short list right to the end of the search. If you don't need anything bigger, you can get an awful lot of car for the money; even if you go completely berserk with the candy on the posh Titanium trim level, you can't make the MSRP break $30K, which makes it a much better value for the same amount of equipment (in a significantly smaller car, I grant) than the Fusion. (Which is also a very nice car, though I hear iffy things about the longevity of their front-end suspension components.)

As an aside, it still feels weird to me to have nice things to say about the Ford product lineup. When I was a kid, we were a GM family all the way, in that weird pseudo-religious way some families have. Within the last however many years, though, they've killed off both of my preferred GM marques, and the one remaining that's reasonably priced (Chevrolet) hasn't made anything I was interested in owning, other than the Camaro, for at least 15 years. They're just... dull. And they have really chintzy-feeling interiors. (This is not just a Chevy thing; even my mother's Cadillac feels cheap on the inside. For instance, it has this godawful silver-colored-plastic surround around the navigation screen. In a Cadillac! What the hell, guys.) Ford's current lineup, on the other hand, is both attractive and capable of giving the impression that the people who nailed them together gave a damn.

Amusingly, my father was recently forced to the same conclusion. When he was looking for his megatruck to haul his giant camper, he ended up buying an F-350, which people who have known him for years regard as grounds to suspect the involvement of a pod person, because it was the only one he could find that had everything he wanted and didn't cost two fortunes instead of one.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Wiregeek
Member since Mar-13-14
85 posts
Jul-15-16, 12:42 PM (EDT)
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27. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #24
 
   My 2012 has the six-speed robot manual "Powershift". I had to exercise my willpower to put the f in there. Now that the Fiesta is paid off, I'm starting to investigate aftermarket firmwares for the transmission. I swear, this would be the perfect transmission, all the pep of a manual and all the convenience of an automatic, if it could just be more aggressively tuned. Also I need the rear motor mount upgrade. It's apparently nearly mandatory in the Fiesta aftermarket.

I'm working on selling a house, which will fund a new 2016 GMC 1 ton High Sierra package - one of the highest trim levels available from Chevy on the truck side, and it doesn't compare to a loaded King Ranch ford. Ford has really stepped up its game on interior quality and fitment.


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Gryphonadmin
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17938 posts
Jul-15-16, 02:33 PM (EDT)
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28. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #27
 
   >My 2012 has the six-speed robot manual "Powershift".

Ahh. I wasn't sure if they'd started offering it yet on 2012s. I guess the Ford one isn't quite as refined as VW's—though, as noted elsewhere, my '13 Beetle's isn't perfect. The roboclutch doesn't seem to know entirely what to do with itself at low speeds, it's a bit jerky (especially when starting out in reverse, which is disconcerting).

>Ford has really stepped up its game on interior quality and
>fitment.

I noticed that in my father's new-to-him F-350 the other day. Very swanky. Of course, for what they're charging for the dang things, I would be expecting room service.

--G.
possibly also blackjack and hookers
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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1247 posts
Jul-13-16, 01:27 PM (EDT)
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5. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #0
 
   >(although not anywhere near as many cool-ass
>buttons and readouts, keep those).

The readouts, yes. The buttons, I'm not so sure. I think that if I had FLAG's budget now, I'd be looking at touchscreens, and those would mostly be used when the driver wanted to override KITT, and didn't feel like arguing with him.

On another note, I think that between Google and Tesla's offerings in automatic driving, we're one smart watch app and a dozen software revisions away from saying, "KITT, I need you," and getting the exact response Michael Knight got in the series.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
748 posts
Jul-13-16, 01:48 PM (EDT)
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6. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #5
 
  
>The readouts, yes. The buttons, I'm not so sure. I think that if I
>had FLAG's budget now, I'd be looking at touchscreens, and those would
>mostly be used when the driver wanted to override KITT, and didn't
>feel like arguing with him.

Is there an engineering consensus on the benefits and drawbacks of touchscreens in something like a military vehicle, which is kinda/sorta what KITT is?

Because they're another point of failure (a physical switch will always work so long as the linkages are there; a touchscreen can be cracked or shattered, rendering it useless) and are more difficult than a physical switch to use in situations where it might be dark (or there are other vision-obscuring difficulties) and they're harder to "safe."

Flip side, you can condense a giant consoles worth of switches and buttons down into a shiny rectangle with menus.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Peter Eng
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1247 posts
Jul-13-16, 02:17 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #6
 
   >
>>The readouts, yes. The buttons, I'm not so sure. I think that if I
>>had FLAG's budget now, I'd be looking at touchscreens, and those would
>>mostly be used when the driver wanted to override KITT, and didn't
>>feel like arguing with him.
>
>Is there an engineering consensus on the benefits and drawbacks of
>touchscreens in something like a military vehicle, which is
>kinda/sorta what KITT is?
>

There probably is, and you're probably right. On the other hand, Knight Rider wasn't especially concerned with real-world design considerations, or they wouldn't have had the Passive Laser Restraint System.

Peter Eng
--
Seatbelts are a far more practical system for keeping people safely in the car.


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JFerio
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Jul-13-16, 10:19 PM (EDT)
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13. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #6
 
   >Is there an engineering consensus on the benefits and drawbacks of
>touchscreens in something like a military vehicle, which is
>kinda/sorta what KITT is?
>
>Because they're another point of failure (a physical switch will
>always work so long as the linkages are there; a touchscreen can be
>cracked or shattered, rendering it useless) and are more difficult
>than a physical switch to use in situations where it might be dark (or
>there are other vision-obscuring difficulties) and they're harder to
>"safe."
>
>Flip side, you can condense a giant consoles worth of switches and
>buttons down into a shiny rectangle with menus.
>
>-Merc
>Keep Rat

Generally, I've taken the consensus as this: Use physical switches for very common, need to know where they are and have the physical landmark, with reliability being something of a second (since so much is computer controlled, but when it's that vital, they try to make said computer controls so redundant, like 4-5 independent computers polling, that if you lose the computer control, it's likely because something destroyed the craft already). Use touch interfaces for esoteric and menu selection functions, generally the sorts of things that you're never going to be in a position to need to select it hurriedly.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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VoidRandom
Member since Dec-9-02
124 posts
Jul-15-16, 08:08 AM (EDT)
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25. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #13
 
   >Generally, I've taken the consensus as this: Use physical switches for
>very common, need to know where they are and have the physical
>landmark, with reliability being something of a second (since so much
>is computer controlled, but when it's that vital, they try to make
>said computer controls so redundant, like 4-5 independent computers
>polling, that if you lose the computer control, it's likely because
>something destroyed the craft already). Use touch interfaces for
>esoteric and menu selection functions, generally the sorts of things
>that you're never going to be in a position to need to select it
>hurriedly.

A lot of military stuff uses a compromise design multi function display, typically a screen with hardware buttons near it. The screen indicates the current function of the buttons. This means you can put a thick protective cover on the screen, have a good chance of hitting the right buttons firmly in a moving and vibrating environment, and cram lots of functionality in. Standard hard controls are still used for controls you need constant or quick access too.

CF-18 cockpit http://learntofly.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/CF-18-Hornet-Pilot-Captain-Patrick-Paco-Gobeil.jpg?x

M1A2 tank gunner position http://techgenmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/m1a2.jpg?x

Of course, this is the USA practice. If you dig around in google you can see similar but different approaches in the AMX-65, recent revs of the Leopard 2 and T-90.

Myself, I don't really like touchscreens. Tablets are fine, but fixed displays are always running into the "gorilla arm" issue.

-VR
You can even get a semi-fake (buttons work, screen doesn't) MFD from Thrustmaster to make your flight sims feel more realistic.
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-13-16, 02:22 PM (EDT)
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8. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #5
 
   >The readouts, yes. The buttons, I'm not so sure. I think that if I
>had FLAG's budget now, I'd be looking at touchscreens, and those would
>mostly be used when the driver wanted to override KITT, and didn't
>feel like arguing with him.

My personal feeling is that you never put important functions behind software like that, for reasons which may become apparent when I finish this long-ass post about car buying I'm working on.

>On another note, I think that between Google and Tesla's offerings in
>automatic driving, we're one smart watch app and a dozen software
>revisions away from saying, "KITT, I need you," and getting the exact
>response Michael Knight got in the series.

Mh. I'm not a fan of the self-driving car concept (and on some level feel personally insulted by Elon Musk's assertion that people who want to drive their own cars will soon be viewed as weirdos), but I will say that if I had a car that could drive itself, that is about the only time I can think of that I would actually want it to do so. Certainly not when I'm in it, but if I could send it off to valet park itself while I do things, and then summon it to come and get me when I'm done, that would be pretty boss. Opens up a lot of liability questions, though. Who's at fault if my car runs someone over while I'm standing in front of the supermarket wondering what's taking it so long? (Presumably I am, since no manufacturer ever holds a bag they can make the consumer hold, but still, it's a thing that needs to be settled.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
748 posts
Jul-13-16, 10:41 PM (EDT)
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14. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #8
 
  
>Mh. I'm not a fan of the self-driving car concept (and on some level
>feel personally insulted by Elon Musk's assertion that people who want
>to drive their own cars will soon be viewed as weirdos),

Elon Musk has the certitude of a much younger man when it comes to his absolute conviction he can individually change the way an entire society thinks and acts in a short timeframe. Watching him talk is a bit like watching a freshly-minted college grad talk until you realize this guy is 45, not 25.

I'm not sure if I should applaud him for maintaining that sort of idealism well into his forties or if it reflects some dangerous narcissism on his part. Maybe both?

-Merc
Keep Rat


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drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
265 posts
Jul-14-16, 04:01 AM (EDT)
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16. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #5
 
   >On another note, I think that between Google and Tesla's offerings in
>automatic driving, we're one smart watch app and a dozen software
>revisions away from saying, "KITT, I need you," and getting the exact
>response Michael Knight got in the series.

The car rushing to your location and then crashing through a closed door/barrier? Yes, I agree.

D.


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Gryphonadmin
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17938 posts
Jul-14-16, 09:53 AM (EDT)
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18. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #16
 
   >>On another note, I think that between Google and Tesla's offerings in
>>automatic driving, we're one smart watch app and a dozen software
>>revisions away from saying, "KITT, I need you," and getting the exact
>>response Michael Knight got in the series.
>
>The car rushing to your location and then crashing through a closed
>door/barrier? Yes, I agree.

Except I want mine to yell "OH YEAAAAH" as it does so.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Meridias
Member since Jun-9-12
40 posts
Jul-14-16, 11:12 AM (EDT)
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19. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #18
 
   >Except I want mine to yell "OH YEAAAAH" as it does so.
>

Is it weird that as I read that, I could see that in my head but it sounded like the Kool-aid Man AND the Macho Man both at the same time?

*********************
Rock Is Dead. Long Live Paper And Scissors.


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Lime2K
Member since May-4-04
105 posts
Jul-14-16, 12:05 PM (EDT)
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20. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #19
 
  

--------------
Lime2K
The One True Evil Overlord


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Peter Eng
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1247 posts
Jul-14-16, 12:19 PM (EDT)
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21. "RE: A shadowy flight, etc."
In response to message #16
 
   >>On another note, I think that between Google and Tesla's offerings in
>>automatic driving, we're one smart watch app and a dozen software
>>revisions away from saying, "KITT, I need you," and getting the exact
>>response Michael Knight got in the series.
>
>The car rushing to your location and then crashing through a closed
>door/barrier? Yes, I agree.

Hmm. Yeah, there might need to be a few dozen more revisions than I think.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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