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Subject: "Fulcrum of Fate impressions"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences Warriors of the Outer Rim Topic #20
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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
259 posts
Nov-09-06, 07:20 PM (EST)
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"Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
 
   Whoa.

I mean, wow, this is GOOD. Symphony-level good. I'm going to go with a list format for the rest, because I'm not up to constructing complete paragraphs at this point.

Some of these are critical rather than congratulatory, by the way, but overall my impression remains: Whoa.

* Len: holy carp, he grew up! I mean, sure, he was one of the central characters in the early WotOR stories, but, um... well, he came across as a whiny goob. Emmy was much more interesting. Hell, *Panaka* was more interesting. I guess taking a lightsaber to the chest changes a man a bit. I really, REALLY liked the Nar Shaddaa bit. Len just seems *right* somehow as the investigator type.

* Emmy's brother: *big cheesy grin* Arr, Emmy!

* Obi-wan: perfect. As I read his scenes, I can *see* Ewan in these scenes, and it is *perfect*. If I ever had the money (and an Anti-Copyright Magic Wand), I'd fund this as a movie, just to see him deliver those lines for real.

* Vader: where oh where to begin? First of all, he was the bad-assest badass there ever was... then you took him, added a dash of EPU magic, and now he's STILL the bad-assest mofo around, but ALSO a decent person? Dude, seriously, major kudos. George did a decent moral U-turn scene in Return of the Jedi, but that's never felt right for Vader; you just took George out back and showed him the RIGHT way to have handled it. This is SOOO much better, I can't even begin to describe it.

* The Guide: Ok, I can appreciate wanting to toss one back at good ol' Doug, but really, I *so* liked the idea of every dimensional-displacee, out-of-time-time-traveler, lost wandering soul type being handed a copy of a Derek Bacon "So You've Just ..." bestseller to get them keyed in on the current happenings.

* Rei & Vader: we've already seen a bit o' the future in Blades, but I'm really looking forward to the 'formal introduction', as it were. Not much to say beyond that, but yeah.

* Yoda: keee-riist! I admit: I was a cheering fan-boy during the fight scene with Dooku in the movie. But somehow that CGI work doesn't compare with text. Nicely done. I've seen Eyrie come a long way, but I have to say, I think the second-largest improvement in a particular area would have to be the way y'all handle a fight scene. (The first would be characterization, heh :)

* Harry Potter & Co.: um. Not really sure how I feel about these. I mean, you're using them well, but I'm not really into the Harry Potter bits. I'd probably like it more if I *didn't* know the source material, but as it is, I feel like EPU is stooping a bit by using these characters. Honest, y'all are better than THAT. :)

* Spider-jedi: *falls over laughing* Hee! I must say, a scene popped unbidden into my mind, involving Master Parker using his webbing and a couple of new apprentices going all wide-eyed and asking, "Whoa! When do we learn THAT?". This is as out of place as anything in EPUs work, and yet, it works.

* Kei & The It's Too Far Away! Problem: honestly, I think you're gonna have to come up with some way of explaining this. Well, no, you don't, I suppose - you're the authors and all, you don't have to explain jack if you don't want to - but I'm Just Not Getting the Problem, here. Look at it this way: the modern era has fold drive, hyperdrive, warpdrive, metaspace, Asgardian teleportation (cf. Urd, Skuld, Corwin, etc), magic (cf. Raven, Asgardians again), and Odin only knows what other forms of transportation lying around. Seems rather unlikely, to me, that (a) nobody's ever been to another galaxy and back, and (b) that the Experts, now that they know at the very least that Kei's not in THIS galaxy, aren't out there in full force scouting the nearest galaxies. Maybe they are, but the vibe coming across is that "it's too far away". According to (very hasty) googling, the nearest galaxies are the Magellanic clouds, followed by the Andromeda galaxy, at ~250000 ly and 2,000,000 ly respectively. The first is only ("only", hah!) about twice the diameter of the Milky Way, which has already been crossed multiple times in-story, as it were. (Unless I'm misconstruing something and the Outer Rim territories are not at the, um, outer rim of the Milky Way).

Ok, so, hard facts have no place in a story - this is Space Opera, dammit! - and I agree, to a point. But it's hard to believe that they can't hop in the saddle and hit the road just because of a piddly thing like distance. Anyway...

* Obi-Wan and the Jyurian Customs Official: hrm. Jyurai has come across as such a mind-bogglingly powerful group of psychics that I have a real hard time believing the Jedi mind-trick schtick would work here. Maybe it would - maybe the Customs Official post on Jyurai is reserved for the mentally deficient among their population - but given the mind-power displayed by them in other scenes throughout EPU history, I'm puzzled. I *suppose* Obi-wan might have picked up a few tricks while he was One With The Force, but it still seems... I dunno, forced.

* I damn near peed myself because I couldn't stop reading until I was done. If that doesn't indicate it's good, I dunno what does. I leave *movies* to pee. I have a laptop; I could've taken this with me. But NOOOO, I *had* to finish it first.

Gryphon & Co.: if you're ever in my neck of the woods, look me up. Dinner's on me.

--sofaspud
--


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Fulcrum of Fate impressions [View All] Sofaspud Nov-09-06 TOP
  RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Wedge Nov-09-06 1
     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Sofaspud Nov-10-06 9
  RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Micah Hakubi Nov-09-06 2
  RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions junipermoderator Nov-09-06 3
     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Sofaspud Nov-10-06 8
         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions junipermoderator Nov-10-06 16
  RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Gryphonadmin Nov-09-06 4
     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Gryphonadmin Nov-09-06 5
         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Sofaspud Nov-10-06 7
             RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Gryphonadmin Nov-10-06 10
                 RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Sofaspud Nov-10-06 14
                     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Peter Eng Nov-13-06 21
             RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Wedge Nov-10-06 11
         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Moonsword Nov-13-06 23
     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions E_M_Lurker Nov-10-06 6
         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions VA_Wanderer Nov-13-06 20
     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions mdg1 Nov-10-06 12
         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Chris Redfield Nov-10-06 13
             RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Sofaspud Nov-10-06 15
                 RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Moonsword Nov-11-06 17
                     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions goldenfire Nov-12-06 18
                         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions clg Nov-13-06 19
                             RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions goldenfire Nov-14-06 24
                                 RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions clg Nov-14-06 25
                                     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Meagen Nov-14-06 26
                                         RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions clg Nov-14-06 27
                                             RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions mdg1 Nov-14-06 28
                     RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Peter Eng Nov-13-06 22
  RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions Lethosos Dec-03-06 29

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Wedge
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Nov-09-06, 07:45 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-06 AT 07:47 PM (EST)
 
>the Andromeda galaxy, at ~250000 ly and 2,000,000 ly respectively.
>The first is only ("only", hah!) about twice the diameter of the Milky
>Way, which has already been crossed multiple times in-story, as it
>were. (Unless I'm misconstruing something and the Outer Rim
>territories are not at the, um, outer rim of the Milky Way).

What you're missing here is that Known Space as it exists at this point in UF is not the galaxy entire, but something more along the lines of a wedge of it. Yes, the Outer Rim refers to the outer edges of the galaxy, and yes, the Coreward Frontier refers to the core, but not the entirety of either. I'm pretty sure it's modeled fairly closely to the charted space in Star Trek, though it's not like we have a real solid reference map or anything like that.

>Ok, so, hard facts have no place in a story - this is Space Opera,
>dammit! - and I agree, to a point. But it's hard to believe that they
>can't hop in the saddle and hit the road just because of a piddly
>thing like distance. Anyway...

You're right! Only, which way do they go? ;) Our Heroes, much like the Russians, tend not to do anything without a plan.


Chad Collier
Smirking Kilrathi
The Captain of the Gravy Train


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
259 posts
Nov-10-06, 01:44 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #1
 
  
>What you're missing here is that Known Space as it exists at this
>point in UF is not the galaxy entire, but something more along the
>lines of a wedge of it. Yes, the Outer Rim refers to the outer edges
>of the galaxy, and yes, the Coreward Frontier refers to the core, but
>not the entirety of either. I'm pretty sure it's modeled fairly
>closely to the charted space in Star Trek, though it's not like
>we have a real solid reference map or anything like that.

Yep, I missed this totally. I'd somehow gotten the impression that the Milky Way was Known Space, and the Outer Rim Territories were, well, the, um, rim. So I definitely missed the boat there. :) Thanks to you and Gryphon for clearing me up on that.

--sofaspud
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Micah Hakubi
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Nov-09-06, 08:00 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #0
 
   >* Kei & The It's Too Far Away! Problem: honestly, I think you're gonna
>have to come up with some way of explaining this. Well, no, you
>don't, I suppose - you're the authors and all, you don't have to
>explain jack if you don't want to - but I'm Just Not Getting the
>Problem, here. Look at it this way: the modern era has fold drive,
>hyperdrive, warpdrive, metaspace, Asgardian teleportation (cf. Urd,
>Skuld, Corwin, etc), magic (cf. Raven, Asgardians again), and Odin
>only knows what other forms of transportation lying around.

You also missed SG-1-style Stargates. Those are always fun.

Seems
>rather unlikely, to me, that (a) nobody's ever been to another galaxy
>and back, and (b) that the Experts, now that they know at the very
>least that Kei's not in THIS galaxy, aren't out there in full force
>scouting the nearest galaxies. Maybe they are, but the vibe coming
>across is that "it's too far away". According to (very hasty)
>googling, the nearest galaxies are the Magellanic clouds, followed by
>the Andromeda galaxy, at ~250000 ly and 2,000,000 ly respectively.
>The first is only ("only", hah!) about twice the diameter of the Milky
>Way, which has already been crossed multiple times in-story, as it
>were. (Unless I'm misconstruing something and the Outer Rim
>territories are not at the, um, outer rim of the Milky Way).
>
>Ok, so, hard facts have no place in a story - this is Space Opera,
>dammit! - and I agree, to a point. But it's hard to believe that they
>can't hop in the saddle and hit the road just because of a piddly
>thing like distance. Anyway...

This pre-supposes that the current methods of FTL don't have specific Engineering and Navigational difficulties that we aren't aware of, nevermind the limitations they have in the orgional sources. Metaspace/Hyperspace in the origional B5 is difficult to manuver without powerful sensor's and/or beacons set ahead of time, and Star Wars-style Hyperspace has difficutly navigating closed-in gravitationally intense areas of space, such as the deep core of the galaxy, without slow and careful survey. I'm not saying that these are the reasons in UF, but I'm throwing out some examples.

Secondly, there's also the logistics/supply-line element of such a venture, as any real attempt at rescue will likely fail unless they go loaded for everything and the kitchen sink, or they know exactly where she is and take the chance that whomever's captured her isn't going to move her after they set out.

Thirdly, it's entirely possible that travel to and from other galaxies doesn't have other difficulties, such as menacing and horrible entities awaiting out in the Deep Black that are hideously dangerous and not to be trifled with. Afterall, look at all the things they've got crawling out and amongst thier own galaxy, nevermind others.

Fourth, the easiest solution would be the find the source of navigation and propulsion that brought Kei to her current locale in the first place, and use -that- to tromp about over to Andromeda.

All sorts of fun stuff.


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junipermoderator
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508 posts
Nov-09-06, 11:21 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #0
 
   Most of this stuff I'll leave for Gryph to answer if he so choses, but the one I know about I'll give you, because I'm in a good mood and stuff. :)

>* The Guide: Ok, I can appreciate wanting to toss one back at good ol'
>Doug, but really, I *so* liked the idea of every
>dimensional-displacee, out-of-time-time-traveler, lost wandering soul
>type being handed a copy of a Derek Bacon "So You've Just ..."
>bestseller to get them keyed in on the current happenings.

Heh. Alaia hasn't read any Derek Bacon. She's familiar with the Guide because her Dad was a hitchhiker as a hobby when she was a kid, and it's what she knew. If she'd read the "So You've Just..." series, she'd probably have handed that to Obi-Wan too, but she hasn't, so she didn't.

Besides, "Don't Panic!" is a perfectly good mantra for a Jedi Padawan who is having a really bad week.

Glad you're enjoying it.


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
259 posts
Nov-10-06, 01:39 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #3
 
   >Heh. Alaia hasn't read any Derek Bacon. She's familiar with the
>Guide because her Dad was a hitchhiker as a hobby when she was a kid,
>and it's what she knew. If she'd read the "So You've Just..." series,
>she'd probably have handed that to Obi-Wan too, but she hasn't, so she
>didn't.

I'm not familiar with Alaia (as in, the source material she comes from, if any), but I must admit she's intriguing. Having a hitchhiker dad - a Guide-style hitchhiker - certainly explains the Guide rather than a Derek book.

But I gotta say... the mental image of Derek (Bugrom God of War, yaarrrr!) meeting Obi-wan has been making me chuckle all day. I have no idea what they'd say, or why they'd meet, or anything. It's just *cool*.

>
>Besides, "Don't Panic!" is a perfectly good mantra for a Jedi Padawan
>who is having a really bad week.

Good mantra for anyone, but ESPECIALLY a padawan. Hell, if Lucas-style Anakyn had followed that advice, who's to say but that the whole crapfest could've been avoided? :)

>
>Glad you're enjoying it.

OH YES. MUST have more. *drool*

Ok, I'll stop now.

--sofaspud
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junipermoderator
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Nov-10-06, 06:14 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #8
 
   >I'm not familiar with Alaia (as in, the source material she comes
>from, if any), but I must admit she's intriguing. Having a hitchhiker
>dad - a Guide-style hitchhiker - certainly explains the Guide rather
>than a Derek book.

She's an original, which is why you're not familiar with her.

>But I gotta say... the mental image of Derek (Bugrom God of War,
>yaarrrr!) meeting Obi-wan has been making me chuckle all day. I have
>no idea what they'd say, or why they'd meet, or anything. It's just
>*cool*.

*snrk* Yeah, I think that'd be pretty cool too. (This has no bearing on anything at all, mind you, but I think it'd be cool.)

>>Glad you're enjoying it.
>
>OH YES. MUST have more. *drool*

We'll do our best to oblige then. It's always nice to know our work's appreciated.


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


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Gryphonadmin
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Nov-09-06, 11:21 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #0
 
   >* Kei & The It's Too Far Away! Problem: honestly, I think you're gonna
>have to come up with some way of explaining this.

... besides the place where I already did? Er, OK...

>Look at it this way: the modern era has fold drive,
>hyperdrive, warpdrive, metaspace, Asgardian teleportation (cf. Urd,
>Skuld, Corwin, etc), magic (cf. Raven, Asgardians again), and Odin
>only knows what other forms of transportation lying around.

Well, let's break it down, shall we:

Hyperdrive (technically, hyperspace motivator drive): The slowest of the known FTL methods, and that's with very carefully prepared charts. Charting unknown space with hyperdrive is very dangerous and takes a very long time, because you have to go in extremely short hops and catalog everything as you go. Utterly unsuitable for an expedition of that kind. Even if you had impeccable charts of the intergalactic void and the destination galaxy, it would take a very, very long time to arrive at even the closest neighboring galaxy, the Lesser Magellanic Cloud.

Warp drive (aka Cochrane subspace distortion drive): Faster than hyperdrive and less prone to navigational anomalies and, er, running into things and blowing up, given that travel takes place in warped real space rather than an alternate plane. However, it's still not very fast when viewed on an intergalactic scale, and warp-driven ships aren't terribly fuel-efficient. Do you know of a reliable source of antideuterium in the intergalactic void?

Metaspace: Though faster than hyperdrive or warp drive and less finicky about the possibility of running into stuff than hyperdrive as well, metaspace has some very weird properties that make navigation difficult and exploration all but impossible. Since metaspace does not map to realspace one-to-one, you can't navigate on time and distance like you can - if you're suicidally optimistic - in hyperspace. Without a beacon system to follow, trying to get to an uncharted galaxy in metaspace would be a fool's errand. Not only would you probably never get where you were trying to go, once you left the range of the existing beacon network back home, you'd probably never get back either.

Fold drive (aka tesseract transition drive): The most tempting propulsion system of all, since it's instantaneous and can transport entire battle fleets at once, but ultimately the biggest dead end. Spacefold demands detailed navigational data; you can't even fake it like you can with hyperdrive if you're bold and/or foolish. If you don't know exactly where you're going, you can't leave in the first place - unless you just charge the drive, randomize the navicomputer and hope for the best! Since 99 point an enormous number of 9s percent of the universe is empty space, you'll probably arrive somewhere. If not, there is the Pauli exclusion principle.

Stargate: Completely worthless as an exploratory system. There has to be a gate at both ends. Trying to reach an unknown galaxy with a stargate would be like trying to make a telephone call to a potted plant.

Sorcerous teleportation: Another tempting blind alley. Not only do you have the navigational problem again - and we'll get into this further below, once we get out of the breakdown of methods - the amount of magical energy required to teleport a sorcerer across interstellar distances would in all likelihood fry most mortal spellcasters, never mind intergalactic distances. As for the divine version, well, might work, might not. Divine teleportation does not appear to have an upper range limit, but it does suffer from something like the stargate problem. Are there windows, mirrors, pools of water, television sets, etc. at the other end? How do you know if you haven't seen it?

TARDIS: Powered by the extradimensional Eye of Harmony, a TARDIS can go damn near anywhere in the universe at any time. It would seem to be the perfect choice, and hell, the International Police have one in stock, as it were. But! As with everything else when you're talking intergalactic travel, it's not that simple. Sure, a TARDIS can take you anywhere - but first you've got to know where you're trying to go. We'll get to this a little further down as well.

So. Using conventional technologies, it appears that there's basically one strategy that hold the best chance for something like a timely success if you wanted to, say, mount a large-scale assault on another galaxy:

Construct a colossal warp-driven scout vessel that's mostly fuel tankage. Wait for, if not an inordinate, at least an inconvenient length of time for it to reach the other end and conduct extensive navigational surveys, then transmit that information back. Send a battle fleet with a fold-capable flagship to join it; have at.

But here's the thing: Where do you send the scoutship? And there's the rub when it comes to rescuing Kei:

- We don't know where "there" is; and
- Wherever it is, it's really far away.

'Cause here's the thing: the universe? Is really, really big. So we know Kei's not in Mutter's Spiral Galaxy (as it's known to the Time Lords). At the moment that's all we can reliably say we know. With such limited information at our disposal, even with the best technology we've currently got, let's have a look at our best-case scenario. In fact, let's exaggerate that best-case scenario beyond what's actually possible just to make the point:

We know Kei's not in this galaxy. Assuming she's in another one and not somewhere in the colossal void in between the galaxies, that leaves us with only (at best modern scientific estimate) about 124,999,999,999 more to check, each containing somewhere around 500 billion solar systems. Even with a TARDIS - even if it somehow only took one second to check each entire galaxy and move on to the next one - that search would take just under 4,000 years. And no, the TARDIS's pilot can't cheat by arranging his course so that he's really checking each separate galaxy in the same single second; that's contrary to the Blinovich limitation (loosely, "you can't be in more than one place at the same time without breaking stuff").

So when I say they can't make a move without something more to go on? They really can't make a move without some more to go on. It's nice to know that she's alive, and it means once we have more intel we may be able to get something going on? But it's not just a matter of grabbing our half a pack of cigarettes and jumping in the Bluesmobile.

Trust me. I do give these things at least a cursory thinking-through before I do them, most of the time. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Gryphonadmin
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Nov-09-06, 11:24 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #4
 
   Oh, right, as to one of your other points, "known space" in the UF universe doesn't encompass the entire galaxy, as it does in Star Wars. It is essentially confined to a single spiral arm of this galaxy. The Outer Rim Territories are at the far end of the arm and curving back along the "back edge" of the bend in it, so to speak; the Coreward Frontier, representing as far as modern explorers have cared to press on toward the galactic core, is about seven-eighths of the way "down" the arm toward the center; and it's bounded on either side by the gaps between this arm and the neighboring ones. In universal terms it's a vanishingly small area.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
259 posts
Nov-10-06, 01:28 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #5
 
   >... The Outer Rim Territories are at the far end of the arm and
>curving back along the "back edge" of the bend in it, so to speak; the
>Coreward Frontier, representing as far as modern explorers have cared
>to press on toward the galactic core, is about seven-eighths of the
>way "down" the arm toward the center; and it's bounded on either side
>by the gaps between this arm and the neighboring ones. In universal
>terms it's a vanishingly small area.

See, this I did not know. I don't recall if it's been mentioned 'on-screen', as it were, and if it has I doubt it was at this level of detail. And honestly, it probably *shouldn't* have been, lest FoF (or whatever) devolve into The EPU Science Hour.

I appreciate the clarification (and the point-by-point list above, too). My point (perhaps not too clearly explained) was not so much that I, the geek sitting here at the keyboard, do not understand the difficulties with the various forms of travel, but rather that I, in my absorbed reader disguise, was jolted ever-so-slightly out of the flow by the problem as it appears at this point.

Essentially, it seems like everyone is saying, "Oh, but it's so far away!" And yeah, it is. But frackinsmackindammit, these are HEROES! Ok, maybe it's STILL too far away, but nobody has really explained that. If I sit back and think about it, I mean REALLY think about it, I understand what you mean in the explanation you gave (which I appreciate, BTW). But as a reader enjoying your work, I'm feeling... I dunno, clueless, I guess.

I'm not sure this makes sense, really. I guess I'm feeling as though, if I were actually THERE, in the UFverse, I'd be hopping up and down going, "Gee, mister, why? Why can't you go save her? Huh? Huh, mister Gryphon sir, huh?" Granted, if I were there and did such a thing, I'd probably be ignored at best, but still. It doesn't feel like anyone's addressed the enormity of the problem. All that's happened so far is something along the lines of:

"We know she's in another galaxy! Let's go save her!"
"But no matter which galaxy it is, it's too far away!"
"Oh. Well, ok then. Hey, what's on TV tonight?"

I mean, I know that's not what's going on, but that's the impression I get upon reading it, and I don't think that's the impression you want to portray.

Of course, I could just be the only idjut getting this impression, but hey - feedback, right? ;)

--sofaspud
--


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Gryphonadmin
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Nov-10-06, 02:08 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #7
 
   >It doesn't feel
>like anyone's addressed the enormity of the problem.

No one really has, on-screen. The closest we've come so far has been a couple-three people sitting around their living room bullshitting about it, which is a far cry from an actual meeting of the Babylon Foundation board of governors or the IPO leadership to discuss the matter. That hasn't appeared, though you can bet it happened sometime between Fulcrum I and Fulcrum II, because it's outside the scope of that particular story. The Fulcrum of Fate isn't about the whereabouts of Kei Morgan or how anyone who might be inclined to try and rescue her might get there... though we will come back to the topic in an oblique sort of way at the end.

And it's not so much that the people we've seen discussing it have said, "Eh, too far. Fuck it, let's go get a sandwich." If you look at the scene in Fulcrum II, Kozue opines that she believes an intergalactic expedition is possible, if enough resources are given to the project, and Len points out that the real problem is, "We have to find her first."

Between that and Len's musing that he feels the universe shifting subtly now that confirmation that his mother's alive is spreading around, I guess I just don't see how you can have formed the impression that nobody's doing anything. It's just that what they're doing right now - what they have to be doing right now - is looking for an angle, not strapping on their guns and riding out of town, and that doesn't look as dramatic on TV.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
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Nov-10-06, 08:21 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #10
 
   >>It doesn't feel
>>like anyone's addressed the enormity of the problem.
>
>No one really has, on-screen. The closest we've come so far has been
>a couple-three people sitting around their living room bullshitting
>...

Yeah, this is *exactly* the vibe I got, which seemed completely at odds with how important Kei is to the UFverse at large (never mind the actual characters). More below on this, though...

>And it's not so much that the people we've seen discussing it have
>said, "Eh, too far. Fuck it, let's go get a sandwich." If you look
>at the scene in Fulcrum II, Kozue opines that she believes an
>intergalactic expedition is possible, if enough resources are
>given to the project, and Len points out that the real problem is, "We
>have to find her first."

Yup - and make no mistake, I understand that's a BIIIIG problem. However...


>Between that and Len's musing that he feels the universe shifting
>subtly now that confirmation that his mother's alive is spreading
>around, I guess I just don't see how you can have formed the
>impression that nobody's doing anything.

Because, so far, all anyone HAS done, on-screen, is talk about it, and not much of that - and as a reader rather than, say, one of the Usual Suspects, I haven't Clue 1 about what is going on in the background (the Babylon council meeting you mention as happening off-screen, for example). Now, I'm not saying you need to trot this stuff out for us, all bullet-pointed and everything. I'm simply pointing out that the feeling I'm getting is more lackadaisacal than I would have expected for such immense news.

However, as Wedge points out, I'm looking for meat in the produce aisle, though I didn't consciously realize it. Heh. See, when you brought Kei into it, I think I kinda went, "Oh, wow, we're finally getting to see what happened to Kei!" When in actual fact, all you're doing is teasing us. Bugger. :)

So, for myself, I'm sticking a mental Post-It next to my Fulcrum of Fate drawer that says, "This is Fulcrum of Fate, not The Return of the Red Lensman", and I think I'll be okay now.

> It's just that what they're
>doing right now - what they have to be doing right now - is
>looking for an angle, not strapping on their guns and riding
>out of town, and that doesn't look as dramatic on TV.
>

I know, I know, but... grr. See, this is why EPU's stuff is so good. You've got me all riled up over a fictional character (in a fictional setting, with no possible connection to little old real-life me). So, kudos.

I'd like to point out that I didn't intend to hijack the FoF forum to discuss Kei's situation, by the way. It just happened to be one of the impressions I formed while reading FoF, so I listed it.

--sofaspud
--


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Peter Eng
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Nov-13-06, 02:43 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #14
 
   > See, when you
>brought Kei into it, I think I kinda went, "Oh, wow, we're finally
>getting to see what happened to Kei!" When in actual fact, all you're
>doing is teasing us. Bugger. :)
>

You have to consider what this is worth, though. From the context of other FI-era material, it's clear that losing Kei took a lot out of Gryphon. And even with all the time between her disappearance and Fulcrum, it was still taking something out of him.

Now Gryphon knows she's alive. And after the Exile, he knows better than anybody just how hard it is to keep Kei from getting what she wants. She's persistent, ruthless, and capable of genius-level work. Nothing short of death will stop her from getting home.

Peter Eng
--
I'm only a Charter Member because of the DCForum upgrade, and because there's no rank below "Clueless F!wit."


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Wedge
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Nov-10-06, 02:24 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-06 AT 02:26 AM (EST)
 
>I'm not sure this makes sense, really. I guess I'm feeling as though,
>if I were actually THERE, in the UFverse, I'd be hopping up and down
>going, "Gee, mister, why? Why can't you go save her? Huh? Huh,
>mister Gryphon sir, huh?" Granted, if I were there and did such a
>thing, I'd probably be ignored at best, but still. It doesn't feel
>like anyone's addressed the enormity of the problem. All that's
>happened so far is something along the lines of:
>
>"We know she's in another galaxy! Let's go save her!"
>"But no matter which galaxy it is, it's too far away!"
>"Oh. Well, ok then. Hey, what's on TV tonight?"
>
>I mean, I know that's not what's going on, but that's the impression I
>get upon reading it, and I don't think that's the impression you want
>to portray.

Part of the problem here, I think, is that you're making a major plot point out of what is, essentially, a tied up loose end. Fulcrum isn't about Kei or the Experts' reaction to her still being alive. Not that the news making it to Gryphon and company isn't important? It's just not important to the story at hand, and the characters and events of the story don't really have anything to do with it. The news itself is secondary, in the context of this series, to what it shows about Len's specific connection to the Force.

As is a popular phrase around the studio, you're looking for meat in the produce aisle. :)

edit: too slow! I'd thought Gryph went to bed. Hey, at least I'm on the same page. :)


Chad Collier
Smirking Kilrathi
The Captain of the Gravy Train


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Moonsword
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Nov-13-06, 07:19 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #5
 
   Depending on exactly which sources you go on, Star Wars didn't used to encompass the entire galaxy, either, interestingly enough.

(The older West End Games RPG very clearly says Known Space was only a small part of the galaxy, although its claim to authority is very much open to debate; depending on exactly how rare "worlds owned by the Empire" are, the original trilogy might not support the notion either.)


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E_M_Lurker
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Nov-10-06, 00:18 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #4
 
   I have the sudden and utterly unfeasible image of a bunch of lesser deities interrogating all entrants to the afterlives, asking if any of them were killed by Kei Morgan, and then backtracking from those who were to their galaxy of origin. ^.^

--The Evil Midnight Lurker what Lurks at Midnight
"An object at rest--CANNOT BE STOPPED!!!"


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VA_Wanderer
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Nov-13-06, 01:40 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #6
 
   >I have the sudden and utterly unfeasible image of a bunch of lesser
>deities interrogating all entrants to the afterlives, asking if
>any of them were killed by Kei Morgan, and then backtracking from
>those who were to their galaxy of origin. ^.^
>

Where's a shinigami when you need one? :)


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
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Nov-10-06, 06:52 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #4
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-06 AT 06:53 AM (EST)
 
> We know Kei's not in this galaxy. Assuming she's in another one and not
> somewhere in the colossal void in between the galaxies, that leaves us with only
> (at best modern scientific estimate) about 124,999,999,999 more to check, each
> containing somewhere around 500 billion solar systems.

I wonder if triangulation via really powerful telepaths/Force-sensitives would help...

Mario


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Chris Redfield
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Nov-10-06, 08:16 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #12
 
   >I wonder if triangulation via really powerful
>telepaths/Force-sensitives would help...

Unfortunately, Triangulation doesn't work really well when all the points of the triangle are in the same place (relatively speaking).

-------------------------------------
Chris can't handle chemicals


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
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Nov-10-06, 08:25 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #13
 
   >>I wonder if triangulation via really powerful
>>telepaths/Force-sensitives would help...
>
>Unfortunately, Triangulation doesn't work really well when all the
>points of the triangle are in the same place (relatively speaking).
>

Heh, beat me to it.

I actually began to try and figure out how much distance would be needed between the triangulation points (remember, gotta have at least 3) to locate Kei to within, say, a 10 ly space, and gave up in disgust when the numbers overran my calculator.

I mean, sure, it's possible to figure out? But, um, yeah. Kinda pointless. :)

--sofaspud
--


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Moonsword
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Nov-11-06, 10:29 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #15
 
   You need three points in a triangulation problem yes: target, observation point 1, observation point 2. We've only got observation point 1's location as a known value.

There are several problems with your reasoning, actually:
* First, the distance between observation point 1 and target point is _not_ known to any accuracy, nor (more importantly) is the bearing. This eliminates observation point 1 from use in triangulation and probably eliminates the use of triangulation in and of itself.

* Second, if the observations are accurate enough, even reasonably close observation points can still be sufficient in triangulation. They aren't at all accurate.

* Third, there _isn't_ an observation point 2, unless I missed something somewhere (which is quite possible, I admit).

* Fourth, the target point may not actually be Kei's current location. We know someone grabbed her and got her out there. That doesn't mean she's still there. For that matter, unless observation points are measured simultaneously _or_ accounting for distance (which we don't have, I'll remind you), the value for the target point received from triangulation is incorrect.

As far as I can tell, trying to determine her location at this point by that method is futile because there just isn't enough information to work with.


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goldenfire
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Nov-12-06, 05:09 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #17
 
   >You need three points in a triangulation problem yes: target,
>observation point 1, observation point 2. We've only got observation
>point 1's location as a known value.

Actually, for triangulation in 2d space, you need 3 observation points. One gives you a circle, two gives you two points (intersection of two circles), and the third tells you which of those two points is the right one. You can probably get away without the 3rd, if there's any directionality to the signal at all...it's only if it's omni-directional that you'd need them all.

Likewise, in 3d space, you'd need four. One gives a sphere, two gives a circle (intersection of the surfaces of two spheres), three gives two points (intersection of the surface of a sphere and a circle), and fourth tells you which of the two points.

and goodness, geometry was so many years ago...



==Jeremy
And who exactly is this diabolical 'they' to which we keep referring? If there's some grand conspiracy going on, the right hand doesn't appear to know what the left is doing. --Raziel (Soul Reaver II)


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clg
Member since Sep-20-05
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Nov-13-06, 03:48 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #18
 
   >Actually, for triangulation in 2d space, you need 3 observation
>points. One gives you a circle, two gives you two points
>(intersection of two circles), and the third tells you which of those
>two points is the right one. You can probably get away without the
>3rd, if there's any directionality to the signal at all...it's only if
>it's omni-directional that you'd need them all.
>
>Likewise, in 3d space, you'd need four. One gives a sphere, two gives
>a circle (intersection of the surfaces of two spheres), three gives
>two points (intersection of the surface of a sphere and a circle), and
>fourth tells you which of the two points.

That's what I thought at first too. I think it depends on whether you're triangulating based on distance or direction. You're working by distance, and analyzing the situation correctly based on that assumption. If we're triangulating based on direction, though, we probably need two observers at bare minimum: each establishes a ray, and these rays intersect in at most one point (unless the observers are collinear with Kei). To get any sort of accuracy you'd probably want more. (This isn't even getting into curved spacetime, which probably doesn't change the conclusions, but makes the analysis more difficult.)

Incidentally, to the authors, I'm enjoying this series as much as any of the Eyrie works. I haven't said anything before only because it seemed I didn't have anything to add.

- Chad

- Chad


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goldenfire
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Nov-14-06, 00:32 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #19
 
   >>You can probably get away without the
>>3rd, if there's any directionality to the signal at all...it's only if
>>it's omni-directional that you'd need them all.

>That's what I thought at first too. I think it depends on whether
>you're triangulating based on distance or direction.

Hence my comment about not needing the third, if you get any directionality from the observations :)

The impression I got, from the story is that Len only sensed distance, not direction (and for that matter, not a very precise distance...oh heck, lemme go find the quote...)


Then, just as he was about to give up and let the pattern
collapse, he saw it - a faint red pinpoint, impossibly far away. He
abandoned the rest of the search and threw all his will at improving
his view of that one light. The distance was astonishing; if this was
who he was seeking, she must be in another galaxy!

Hmm, well that does seem to indicate directionality, actually... but useful enough for triangulation, I suspect...if they could get enough other data points. Ah, well; I suspect The Authors will find some way to render all this speculation moot :)



==Jeremy
And who exactly is this diabolical 'they' to which we keep referring? If there's some grand conspiracy going on, the right hand doesn't appear to know what the left is doing. --Raziel (Soul Reaver II)


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clg
Member since Sep-20-05
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Nov-14-06, 03:24 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #24
 
   >>That's what I thought at first too. I think it depends on whether
>>you're triangulating based on distance or direction.
>
>Hence my comment about not needing the third, if you get any
>directionality from the observations :)

Oh. Right. Heh.

>Hmm, well that does seem to indicate directionality, actually... but
>useful enough for triangulation, I suspect...if they could get
>enough other data points.

And get any sort of accuracy; as the authors have noted, that's the real problem here.

>Ah, well; I suspect The Authors will find
>some way to render all this speculation moot :)

Indeed. My wild-assed guess: Kamor Bakhva is involved somehow. Either Kei suicides (how?) and they use it straight, or (slightly more likely) they adapt it to reach across spacetime. I put the odd of this at about 1%, but since when did that stop speculation?

- Chad

- Chad


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Meagen
Member since Jul-14-02
551 posts
Nov-14-06, 09:08 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #25
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-06 AT 09:08 AM (EST)
 
>Indeed. My wild-assed guess: Kamor Bakhva is involved somehow.
>Either Kei suicides (how?) and they use it straight, or (slightly more
>likely) they adapt it to reach across spacetime.

Kei's not a Jedi. If she dies, she doesn't become one with the Force - so Kamor Bakhva is useless in bringing her back.

Besides, as we know from Requiem...

	"But we -haven't- seen her, and Teleute and Forseti haven't
either," Vigdis confirmed, "so... there -is- hope. But I don't want
to give you too much of it. She had... has... very powerful enemies.
Everyone who was at the Ragnarok has."
"Powerful enough to interfere with the natural order of
death?" Kozue asked.
"Yes," Corwin and Vigdis replied as one.
"... wow," said Kozue softly.

--
With great power come great perks.


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clg
Member since Sep-20-05
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Nov-14-06, 09:48 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #26
 
   >Kei's not a Jedi. If she dies, she doesn't become one with the Force -
>so Kamor Bakhva is useless in bringing her back.

Damn, you're right. I missed that.

>Besides, as we know from Requiem...

> "But we -haven't- seen her, and Teleute and Forseti haven't 
>either," Vigdis confirmed, "so... there -is- hope. But I don't want
>to give you too much of it. She had... has... very powerful enemies.
>Everyone who was at the Ragnarok has."
> "Powerful enough to interfere with the natural order of
>death?" Kozue asked.
> "Yes," Corwin and Vigdis replied as one.
> "... wow," said Kozue softly.

Well, okay, but one presumes these enemies have to know that Kei is dying to do anything about it. Unless she passes through Muspelheim on the way (doubtful), how would they? I always interpreted this passage to mean "Kei could have been killed by one of these enemies".

The suicide option seemed like the less likely anyhow. I was thinking something along the lines of Len's connection to Kei substituting for the beacon, and… well… who knows how they'd bore a hole to another galaxy. Well, I did say it was a wild-assed guess.

- Chad

- Chad


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
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Nov-14-06, 10:49 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #27
 
   Interestingly, something similar happens in the Lensmen books themselves. Though, in that case, it was Kim Kinnison who was lost, and Clarissa and the kids who found him.

Mario


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Peter Eng
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Nov-13-06, 02:50 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #17
 
   >
>* Third, there _isn't_ an observation point 2, unless I missed
>something somewhere (which is quite possible, I admit).
>

As far as I know, you're correct. Also, I'm inclined to think that Len's ability to find Kei is unique to him.

One of the standard scrying modifiers is "familiarity with target." He's probably the only Force-user who could find Kei at the time of Fulcrum. He may be the only Force-user who can find Kei, period.

Peter Eng
--
I'm only a Charter Member because of the DCForum upgrade, and because there's no rank below "Clueless F!wit."


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Lethosos
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Dec-03-06, 02:12 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Fulcrum of Fate impressions"
In response to message #0
 
   I just want to point out something else...

For a hunting expedition, you need two things: A way to get there, and a base to operate from. I have ideas, but as the satement goes, no more outside authors. So, zipped lips. ;)

Now, I know this is outside the purvey of the Fulcrum series, but... since it's brought up, just keep in mind that it's never the intention of the series to follow that plot point. In-canon Gryph already has a huge task ahead of him just to prepare, and who cannot say that he's doing it right now? Just consider the time spent in Fulcrum to be an indicator of the Herculean task of juggling this, and the daily demands of IPO/Experts at the same time.

We'll see the end of this particular back-thread soon enough, just give writer Gryph and Co. the opportunity to get to it when they get to that point. Never rush someone when they're writing a good story. I'm already hooked on Fulcrum, and I have this feeling Len is central to the back-thread once when he's ready. (I blame William Gibson's Idoru series for that.)


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