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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
407 posts
May-26-17, 12:47 PM (EDT)
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"The evolution of Valkyries"
 
   With Macross Delta having been out long enough that, if you WANT access to it, you can find it (or pay gross amounts for the Japanese Blurays, like me), what are people's thoughts on the VF-31, both in general and also in UF-metaverse? I love the changes to the mounting of the arms, personally, and the weapons pod that occupies the space the arms used to, but wondered what others thought.
The SV-262 Drakken III is a PRETTY mech, but its so damn complicated mechanically (I've transformed my Chogokin 262 three times and I've needed the instructions all three times) that I doubt it would be a serious competitor to the VF-1 in universe.
Also, the VF-1 has been upgraded in the Macross universe and still serves as a trainer, but with up-to-date avionics, more power, and the EX-Gear system from Frontier, so the dash 80 is kind of canon now.
Sorry, rambling, just curious about peoples thoughts

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
The evolution of Valkyries [View All] BLUE May-26-17 TOP
  RE: The evolution of Valkyries pjmoyermoderator May-26-17 1
     RE: The evolution of Valkyries BLUE May-26-17 2
         RE: The evolution of Valkyries pjmoyermoderator May-26-17 6
     RE: The evolution of Valkyries Nathan May-26-17 3
         RE: The evolution of Valkyries Gryphonadmin May-26-17 4
             RE: The evolution of Valkyries Nathan May-26-17 7
         RE: The evolution of Valkyries BLUE May-26-17 5
         RE: The evolution of Valkyries drakensis May-27-17 8
  RE: The evolution of Valkyries CdrMike May-27-17 9
     RE: The evolution of Valkyries Croaker Jun-01-17 10
         RE: The evolution of Valkyries Gryphonadmin Jun-01-17 11

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pjmoyermoderator
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May-26-17, 01:48 PM (EDT)
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1. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #0
 
   >With Macross Delta having been out long enough that, if you WANT
>access to it, you can find it (or pay gross amounts for the Japanese
>Blurays, like me), what are people's thoughts on the VF-31, both in
>general and also in UF-metaverse? I love the changes to the mounting
>of the arms, personally, and the weapons pod that occupies the space
>the arms used to, but wondered what others thought.
>The SV-262 Drakken III is a PRETTY mech, but its so damn complicated
>mechanically (I've transformed my Chogokin 262 three times and I've
>needed the instructions all three times) that I doubt it would be a
>serious competitor to the VF-1 in universe.
>Also, the VF-1 has been upgraded in the Macross universe and still
>serves as a trainer, but with up-to-date avionics, more power, and the
>EX-Gear system from Frontier, so the dash 80 is kind of canon now.
>Sorry, rambling, just curious about peoples thoughts

I actually haven't gotten around to watching Delta (part of my current delay of consuming media in the wake of Destiny - I've gotten out of synch with Steven Universe and Rebels as well and need to catch up). I didn't know about the VF-1 upgrade, but that's nice to know.

I imagine overall flight tech is going to keep things where they are at the end of RS:CFSFTD issue 5 (mid 2410), with the VF-1 dash 80 maintaining its supremacy and Macross Plus/Seven era mechs serving niche and background roles. Other space nations may end up with the alternate "aggressor" mecha designs as competitors/deterrents to the ZC/WDF-backed Valkyries in the arena of variable-configuration mecha but never manage to quite get past the VF-1's dominance.

Note that the characters from Macross Frontier are around, if you're willing to look -- they're just flying more standardized equipment.

--- Philip






Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"
Fandoms -- Fanart -- Fan Meta Discussions


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
407 posts
May-26-17, 04:23 PM (EDT)
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2. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #1
 
   >I actually haven't gotten around to watching Delta (part of my current
>delay of consuming media in the wake of Destiny - I've gotten
>out of synch with Steven Universe and Rebels as well and
>need to catch up). I didn't know about the VF-1 upgrade, but that's
>nice to know.
>
One of the pilots that is flying them is Max and Miria's GRANDDAUGHTER (without looking it up, I think Miranda is her mom. One of Mylene's sisters with an "M" name, anyway) and they do the whole Red oni/ Blue oni thing during training. They call the upgrade the VF-1EX, thereby completely screwing up their previous designation system.

>I imagine overall flight tech is going to keep things where they are
>at the end of RS:CFSFTD issue 5 (mid 2410), with the VF-1 dash 80
>maintaining its supremacy and Macross Plus/Seven era mechs serving
>niche and background roles. Other space nations may end up with the
>alternate "aggressor" mecha designs as competitors/deterrents to the
>ZC/WDF-backed Valkyries in the arena of variable-configuration mecha
>but never manage to quite get past the VF-1's dominance.
>

Its funny you say that about niche roles, because NUNS is STILL flying Macross-universe-standard VF-171 Nightmare Plus fighters while XAOS flies the VF-31, much like SMS flew the VF-25s during Frontier. Private military contractors are flying the much more advanced fighters, serving specialised roles. (Delta Platoon acts as an aerial demo team when not called upon to defend Walküre, and carries some of the SFX gear that the group uses. Skull squadron in Frontier were basically a Special Forces squadron or crisis response squadron, so again specialized roles)
To be fair, NUNS is lucky to achieve mediocrity at this point in the ongoing meta-story of the Macross universe, so settling for a substandard but inexpensive fighter is about par for the course. They've skipped 2 upgrade cycles now (YF-24, which led to the VF-25 and 27, then the YF-30, which led to the VF-31).

>Note that the characters from Macross Frontier are around, if
>you're willing to look -- they're just flying more standardized
>equipment.
>

Curiousity: does the WDF or IPO even HAVE a sniper variant Valkyrie? Its definitely the least "standard", and while I know there are ELINT variants, (and the concept of a giant sniper mech is somewhat amusing), I don't recall ever reading anything about one.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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pjmoyermoderator
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May-26-17, 07:37 PM (EDT)
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6. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #2
 
   >One of the pilots that is flying them is Max and Miria's GRANDDAUGHTER
>(without looking it up, I think Miranda is her mom. One of Mylene's
>sisters with an "M" name, anyway) and they do the whole Red oni/ Blue
>oni thing during training. They call the upgrade the VF-1EX, thereby
>completely screwing up their previous designation system.

(Somewhere backstage, Kaname Sterling exclaims, "Whaddya mean, mom's pregnant again?! I've already got one kid sister!")

(Note, yes, I've heard of the newest Jenius, but if she were to appear, she'd be in diapers for quite a while.)

>Curiousity: does the WDF or IPO even HAVE a sniper variant Valkyrie?
>Its definitely the least "standard", and while I know there are ELINT
>variants, (and the concept of a giant sniper mech is somewhat
>amusing), I don't recall ever reading anything about one.

Honestly, all you need for that is a VF-1 with a custom beam rifle, and VERY steady hands/neural interface.

--- Philip






Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"
Fandoms -- Fanart -- Fan Meta Discussions


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Nathan
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May-26-17, 05:32 PM (EDT)
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3. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #1
 
   >I actually haven't gotten around to watching Delta (part of my current
>delay of consuming media in the wake of Destiny - I've gotten
>out of synch with Steven Universe and Rebels as well and
>need to catch up). I didn't know about the VF-1 upgrade, but that's
>nice to know.
>
>I imagine overall flight tech is going to keep things where they are
>at the end of RS:CFSFTD issue 5 (mid 2410), with the VF-1 dash 80
>maintaining its supremacy and Macross Plus/Seven era mechs serving
>niche and background roles. Other space nations may end up with the
>alternate "aggressor" mecha designs as competitors/deterrents to the
>ZC/WDF-backed Valkyries in the arena of variable-configuration mecha
>but never manage to quite get past the VF-1's dominance.

The part of my brain that I can never quite keep from playing in other people's universes has speculated that the VF-25, VF-27, and so on, as/if they exist in UF, don't do so in the main arena of civilized space - they ended up descending from a batch of VF-2s that were along for the ride when the Prometheus misjumped itself out of history somewhere in the early Exile. It's not VF-25, it's VF-2-5, built by-and-for that lost WDF offshoot on Kharak.

But, uh, obviously this is not in any way accurate.

Anyway. As specialist or rival counterparts, both the Messiah and the Lucifer (I, too, haven't sat down to watch Delta yet) have real arguments for points where they're superior to the VF-1. The Messiah's companion Super and Full Armor FAST packs are head and shoulders above those available for the VF-1 in terms of firepower, durability, etc, and the Full Armor config in particular has a three-mode capability that the Valkyrie can't match. The downside there, of course, being that I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get two VF-1s with FAST packs for the price of a single Full Armor Messiah. The price of the base planes may be comparable, but I kind of suspect that their performance is, too, so much so that spare parts reserves etc are genuinely a deciding factor. The VF-25 being the better looking of the two just can't compete with that.

The Lucifer, meanwhile, has a hell of a party trick (Fighter-carried Class Omega?!), and the better g-canceling tech in the UFverse wipes out its big canon weak point, the need for full conversion cyborg pilots. OTOH, given what we see from All Feature programs in the real world, the price tag of a single VF-27 is probably substantially more than a -25 with both armor sets, making them too rare to waste on missions that don't involve the need to pull a reflex cannon out of your ass.

The VF-171, meanwhile, as much as I love its visual design and miss the days when government forces were allowed to at least pretend to be worthwhile, is blatantly a Quickscell product, with all that implies.

-----
Iä! Iä! Moe fthagn!


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Gryphonadmin
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May-26-17, 05:39 PM (EDT)
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4. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #3
 
   >The part of my brain that I can never quite keep from playing in other
>people's universes has speculated that the VF-25, VF-27, and so on,
>as/if they exist in UF, don't do so in the main arena of civilized
>space - they ended up descending from a batch of VF-2s that were along
>for the ride when the Prometheus misjumped itself out of history
>somewhere in the early Exile.

You mean this Prometheus? :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Nathan
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1382 posts
May-26-17, 08:40 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #4
 
   >You mean
>this
>Prometheus? :)

In fact, I did! I had tried to find reference to what happened to her after Sonset by searching the stories and had no luck, so the plot bunny kind of ran with what was useful to it. I'd completely forgotten that that BGPD entry existed.

So I suppose it could've been the Daedalus, since the plot I had in mind involved a very emphatic crash that probably would've been visible in the condition of the Marie Ce^H^HPrometheus when found.

-----
Iä! Iä! Moe fthagn!


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
407 posts
May-26-17, 06:36 PM (EDT)
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5. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-26-17 AT 06:37 PM (EDT)
 
>The part of my brain that I can never quite keep from playing in other
>people's universes has speculated that the VF-25, VF-27, and so on,
>as/if they exist in UF, don't do so in the main arena of civilized
>space - they ended up descending from a batch of VF-2s that were along
>for the ride when the Prometheus misjumped itself out of history
>somewhere in the early Exile. It's not VF-25, it's VF-2-5, built
>by-and-for that lost WDF offshoot on Kharak.
>
>But, uh, obviously this is not in any way accurate.
>
>Anyway. As specialist or rival counterparts, both the Messiah
>and the Lucifer (I, too, haven't sat down to watch Delta yet) have
>real arguments for points where they're superior to the VF-1. The
>Messiah's companion Super and Full Armor FAST packs are head and
>shoulders above those available for the VF-1 in terms of firepower,
>durability, etc, and the Full Armor config in particular has a
>three-mode capability that the Valkyrie can't match. The downside
>there, of course, being that I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get
>two VF-1s with FAST packs for the price of a single Full Armor
>Messiah. The price of the base planes may be comparable, but I kind of
>suspect that their performance is, too, so much so that spare parts
>reserves etc are genuinely a deciding factor. The VF-25 being the
>better looking of the two just can't compete with that.
>

The VF-31 is prettier, better engineered...and yeah, has so much shiny new stuff crammed into it that it would have a similar price tag. It doesn't have a full Armor Pack like the 25 does, but its Super pack is very similar to that of the 25. The OTHER party trick it has is the aforementioned weapons pod, which is mission configurable. The EW specialist in Delta has a folding radome that can stow for launch or high speed maneuvering and then deploy upon arrival, and one episode they feature sound-and-light pods mounted similar to the ones used by Sound Force in Macross 7. While these replace the rifle the VF-31 carries, it also has twin arm-mounted Vulcan cannons, so it isn't completely disarmed. In addition, the weapons pod is deployable in all three modes.
So yeah, shinier, but probably very damn expensive

>The Lucifer, meanwhile, has a hell of a party trick
>(Fighter-carried Class Omega?!), and the better g-canceling tech in
>the UFverse wipes out its big canon weak point, the need for full
>conversion cyborg pilots. OTOH, given what we see from All Feature
>programs in the real world, the price tag of a single VF-27 is
>probably substantially more than a -25 with both armor sets,
>making them too rare to waste on missions that don't involve
>the need to pull a reflex cannon out of your ass.
>

The SV-262 is similar. It has a hella powerful cannon, and is manuverable as hell in fighter mode, has a full VR cockpit like the VF-19 (the canopy isn't even transparent, so lose power and goodbye, vision...) and is being flown by a race of almost-supermen (they are stronger, quicker reflexes, better senses, etc...but only live to their mid-30s, and still mature at the same relative rate as humans, so a teenagers is MIDDLE AGED) so it seems to be even stronger than it actually is, but its a completely new transformation, is much more mechanically complicated, the transformation limits the amount of fastpack equipment it can mount (primarily leg packs and deployable wing-tip drones), and overall is the VF-21 or 27 all over again. The quality of the pilots is the strongest element of the mech.

>The VF-171, meanwhile, as much as I love its visual design and miss
>the days when government forces were allowed to at least
>pretend to be worthwhile, is blatantly a Quickscell product,
>with all that implies.
>

The 171 is the first-generation-RGM-79 of the Macross universe.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
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May-27-17, 01:04 AM (EDT)
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8. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #3
 
   >The part of my brain that I can never quite keep from playing in other
>people's universes has speculated that the VF-25, VF-27, and so on,
>as/if they exist in UF, don't do so in the main arena of civilized
>space - they ended up descending from a batch of VF-2s that were along
>for the ride when the Prometheus misjumped itself out of history
>somewhere in the early Exile. It's not VF-25, it's VF-2-5, built
>by-and-for that lost WDF offshoot on Kharak.

I still have a sneaking fondness for the VF-2 from Macross II, and the VF-19 was also very very pretty. I haven't really thought that about the later VFs, whatever their other merits.

D.


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CdrMike
Member since Feb-20-05
889 posts
May-27-17, 06:45 AM (EDT)
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9. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #0
 
   Well, the big thing to consider is that the evolutionary pressures on VF development in Macross and UF sort of don't intersect too much beyond "Build a better fighter." In Macross, VF design sort of plateaued with the VF-19/VF-22 designs, as both were so powerful that they strained pilots past the breaking point and became widow-makers for all but the best ace pilots. The VF-171 sort of offered the best compromise, performance surpassing the previous gen while still being within an average pilot's tolerance range. Fighters like the VF-25, VF-27, and VF-31 are mostly limited runs kept for special forces/contractors whose pilots can handle them.

Meanwhile, VF development in UF sort of halted at the VF-1 for one simple reason: It just does what its meant to do very well. Much like the F-14 from which it was based, the design is so good that there's not much argument for its retirement besides "it's old." And efforts to replace it have failed because the proposed replacements either brought nothing new to the table or were made pointless by upgrades to the airframe. Even the VF-19 and VF-21/22 are likely to be relegated to niche roles, bought in modest numbers for those who want something different from the old warhorse. If the VF-25/27/31 ever existed in UF, they would likely be bleeding-edge prototypes built as one-offs.

--------------------------
CdrMike, Overwatch Reject

"You know, the world could always use more heroes." - Tracer, Overwatch


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Croaker
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Jun-01-17, 07:49 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #9
 
   >If the VF-25/27/31 ever existed in
>UF, they would likely be bleeding-edge prototypes built as one-offs.
>

Which is pretty much what they are in Frontier and Delta, really.

Frontier is pretty good - the Vajra are the first truly ALIEN alien race we've come across in-universe (Zentraedi and Zolans are Near-Humans, and Protodeviln aren't a race).

I honestly LIKE the VF-171, it's a very pretty mech.

Here's a question to ask. How available is the VF-1 on the public market? We've seen other space forces using their own fighter types - Starfuries for the Earth Alliance, Y-Wings for the Freespacers, TIEs for GENOM, etc. Who outside the WDF uses Valkyries? What does the Salusian Navy, for example, use for its primary fighter these days?

--
Croaker
RCW #mc2
"When in doubt, shoot something. Preferably the enemy."


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-01-17, 08:56 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: The evolution of Valkyries"
In response to message #10
 
   >Here's a question to ask. How available is the VF-1 on the public
>market? (...) Who outside the WDF uses Valkyries?

Well, the advertisement for the 400th-anniversary Mark 80 model in the June 16, 2392 issue of AvLeak boasts "95 forces supplied", though from context that seems to be the total for all time, not how many are currently using the type in that year. Still, we can assume that Stonewell Bellcom will sell them to anybody who a) can afford them and b) is on the WDF's "we're probably not going to have to fight these guys" list, and of course earlier models are presumably kicking around the used-military-hardware market in substantial quantities.

OK, in fairness the "authorized to sell to" criteria are a bit tighter and more complicated than that, but for purposes of discussion that's more or less what it boils down to. I would assume that a respectable number of your better-funded system-level defense organizations, planetary militias, and whatnot employ outdated versions, and current ones are frontline for a number of the larger multi-stellar polities that don't have indigenous combat aerospacecraft industries.

>What does the
>Salusian Navy, for example, use for its primary fighter these days?

Like the WDF, the RSN employs a mix of Veritech and fixed-configuration starfighters, and their Veritech forces include both VF-1s and the Legios platform. They were also one of the launch customers for both the VF-1 Lightning and VF-11 Thunderbolt series, and have shown an interest in the VF-19 Excalibur despite the fact that it was not successful in the WDF's Project Supernova trials.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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