>
>Quite widely. Professor Harris happens to be a member of a religion
>which discounts the possibility out of hand; the general public is
>pretty well accustomed to it.

Fundamentalist Christian, Prehaps? Probaly doesn't buy Evolution than
either.

The Galactic Church of Man aren't exactly Christians, and they're a bit beyond fundamentalist. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

"Galactic Church of Man?" So they're misogynists, speciesist, or both?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

They divide lifeforms into three basic groups:

- human;
- not quite human, but tolerable; and
- animals.

"Humans" encompasses much more than just Earthpeople. In the UF universe, there are quite a few different worlds which seem to have arrived at Homo sapiens independently. People from those worlds are, for the most part, medically compatible (blood types, anatomy and so forth), though it can usually be told by a genetic scan which group they're part of. Sometimes they can be told apart by visual inspection, but the differents are cosmetic. Examples: Earthpeople, Corellians, Jyuraians, Zardons, Gamilons, Bajorans, the Cyberrace of Mondas (before modification). Human species are embraced as brethren by the Church of Man.

"Not quite human" is a slightly broader category, and basically encompasses humanoid creatures (basically, anything that could be played by a human actor without really heavy makeup - Klingon yes, pak'ma'ra no) who have some fundamental biochemical or anatomical difference which makes them medically incompatible with humans. In many cases, members of these races can interbreed with humans without medical intervention, but not always. Examples: Klingons, Vulcans/Romulans, Salusians, Minbari, Narns, Centauri. These creatures are considered unfortunate, but accepted as fellow sentients. The Church would prefer it if they kept their paws off our women, though.

Everything else that walks, flops, slithers, rolls or oozes and calls itself a lifeform gets lumped into the "animals" category by the Church of Man. They aren't necessarily anti- any of this, but they think it's kind of a sad joke that so many of their fellow sentients have the sad delusion that any of these things are true sentient lifeforms. The Church generally doesn't attack these - they just ignore them.

Machines don't fit into any of those categories, and the Church sees machines that try to be like men - both computer-based AI systems and humanoid robots like Dorothy - as abominations, insults flung in the face of God. How they react depends on the bent of the subsect any given individual is part of. Some, like Professor Harris, abide by the laws of the world in which they live, but make it plain that they don't like it, and don't accord cybernetic citizens anything but the bare legal minimum of civility and privilege. Others are more militant about it and push for, or even attempt themselves, the destruction of such beings.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>"Not quite human" is a slightly broader category, and basically
>encompasses humanoid creatures <snip> Examples: Klingons,
>Vulcans/Romulans, Salusians, Minbari, Narns, Centauri. These
>creatures are considered unfortunate, but accepted as fellow
>sentients.

Wait -- so they consider Bajorans "human," but not Vulcans? Do Vulcans have the funky eyebrows Romulans have, or is it due to their long lifespans and green (i.e., using hemocyaenin instead of hemoglobin) blood?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

It's the different biochemistry and internal arrangement. The Bajorans have funny noses, but their blood is red and their anatomy pretty much the same.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Another thing, regarding the amount of "human" aliens in UF, has
>anyone
>in the multiverse put forth something like the Solmani Hypothesis from
>Traveller (the idea that humans orginally all came from Earth but some
>were
>removed by an advanced alien race for some unkown reason and "seeded"
>across
>the galaxy.)

A similar theory, and examples of just that, exsist in the Star Trek Universe.
The Preservers.

Kevin Cody
Pre-Reader for Drunkard's Walk 2 and Liquid Courage.

Except that in ST, it's not a theory; it was demonstrated quite conclusively via a message from the ancient species who did it. See TNG episode "The Chase."

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Which is, perhaps, my least favorite Trek episode concept of all time.

That particular abomination happened to come up in discussion between Gryph and I last week. Trust me, you will see no such theory put forth (at least, not with any level of credibility) in UF.

Yuck.

--truss.

And, love it or hate it, it is canon. Until and unless Rick Berman and/or Brannon Braga decide to ignore it.

At least when Ira Behr ignored preexisting continuity he made the universe <em>more</em> interesting.

>That particular abomination happened to come up in discussion between
>Gryph and I last week. Trust me, you will see no such theory put
>forth (at least, not with any level of credibility) in UF.

*shrug* Considering that an ancient starfaring race "seeding" worlds to produce humanoid life is actually more likely an explanation for large numbers of similar species, mathematically speaking, than parallel or convergent evolution (not to mention interbreeding that not only works but creates fertile offspring, which is so improbable by way of evolution as to be laughable) ... but then, UF isn't hard SF any more than ST or SW.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

You neglect one important factor; magic works in UF, and -not- in ST.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

I knew you'd say this.

Offhand, I prefer the parallel evolution concept (which, by the way, was Roddenberry's original excuse for the fact that Star Trek aliens look like humans in cheap makeup, dating all the way back to his original pitch documentation for the series in 1964 :) for the simple, basic reason that, while it may be improbable by the dictates of hard science, it isn't... well... lame like the "Preserver" copout. The "seeding" concept is another case, like the no-sound-in-space rule or the space-fighters-wouldn't-maneuver-like-that argument, of the more scientifically plausible concept being stupid-looking. I really dislike "powerful aliens meddled with the development of species X in their ancient past" plots in general, and the Preservers thing is the ultimate expression of that particular scripting indignity.

Earthlike planets produce Earthlike inhabitants. It may fly in the face of some arcane law of genetics, but it's a lot more logical on a horse-sense level.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Earthlike planets produce Earthlike inhabitants. It may fly in the
>face of some arcane law of genetics, but it's a lot more logical on a
>horse-sense level.

Maybe on the surface, but the only Earth species that look remotely like us are very close genetic relatives, and they look more different from us than J. Random Star Trek Alien. At least SW makes the concession that alien beings from alien worlds tend to look a lot different, and aren't interfertile. (There's no explanation given for why humans are so common, but I've always figured that it was because humans are actually only native to Corellia in the SW, and since Corellians created the first working hyperdrive, they started lots of colonies before anyone else did.)

And even parallel or convergent evolution utterly fails to explain interfertility. If they're not the same species, then they're not interfertile; that's part of the whole definition of "species" to begin with. Maybe the same genus, but even then, that kind of union is unlikely to produce fertile offspring.

Earth only barely produced us; we've been present for an eyeblink of history on the geological level, or even the history of the planet. No reason to say that an Earthlike planet would necessarily even produce intelligent primates.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Too much science is bad for fiction.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Brad.

And not enough leads to such things as the careers of Dean Devlin and Roland Emmerich.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>Earthlike planets produce Earthlike inhabitants. It may fly in the
>face of some arcane law of genetics, but it's a lot more logical on a
>horse-sense level.
>

Actually, it could be argued <not tremendously well, but enough to be useful> that the 'human' arrangement of body structure and to a lesser degree genetics is the most pleasent route to sentience for species <not that other paths aren't possible, just harder and even less likely>. This makes lots of aliens being mostly human merely an artifact of what it takes, normally, to achieve sentience.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

<Iwilllearntospelloneday>

	-={(Astynax)}=- "Sometimes fanfic is a love letter to canon, sometimes it's a polite disagreement, and sometimes it's 95 things canon did wrong nailed to a door."

One theory advanced by a handful of religions which worship the Norse gods or variants is the Chosen Earth theory, which implies that Earth is the most important planet in the universe because it has the "true" message of the gods. This theory is ridiculed in a number of circles, but it also includes the subtheory that so many alien races are either human or very close to human because the gods created them in their image. The Elvish Sub-Corollary states that the human races- Earth, Corellia, Zardon, etc.- were created by the Aesir, while elvish races- Hyelians, Vulcans, Romulans, and so forth- were created by the Vanir, who being of lesser might have fewer creations. This theory is, of course, utterly wrong, but it gives the gods quite a bit of amusement.

The most common theory as to the commonality of humanoids is that the human form is most suited to the development of intelligent life. The fact that beings native to fifty different worlds have genetic patterns so close as to make them almost indistinguishable is generally thought to be due to ancient star-spanning civilizations, not just the Santovasku and Atlanteans, not just the older Galactic Empire of the Padishah, but even predating the legendary lost civlization of Mandalor. This would put such a civilization back prior to 50,000 B. C. or so, and completely out of even the most tenuous records.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

(And it's also wrong.)

I like the "in the gods' image" theory, actually; I guess under that theory, things like the Dralasites were the gods taking a break and trying to think outside the box. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>(And it's also wrong.)

Of course. All the generally accepted theories are wrong. }:-{D

>I like the "in the gods' image" theory, actually; I guess under that
>theory, things like the Dralasites were the gods taking a break and
>trying to think outside the box. :)

What, like the platypus, the bandersnatch and the network programming executive weren't proof enough of that? }:-{D

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

... Natch.

Actually, I thought the real reason was {FIAT} (<-- the brackets of power should really be square, but that don' go on 'dis boa'd.)

>>I like the "in the gods' image" theory, actually; I guess under that
>>theory, things like the Dralasites were the gods taking a break and
>>trying to think outside the box. :)
>
>What, like the platypus, the bandersnatch and the network programming
>executive weren't proof enough of that? }:-{D

Hmmm... are these Niven's bandersnatchi or something completely different?

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Never heard of the things anywhere else but Carrol.)

Neither Gryphon nor I are terribly fond of Niven's works. I make an exception for bandersnatchi, though, because I like the idea of a giant armored legless slab of meat which is (a) intelligent, and (b) sells licenses for other species to hunt it.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

Well if you were a 60 ton lump of intellegent white flesh, wouldn't you be pretty bored? And whatever else one of those hunts might be, it'll definitely be... interesting.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

Actually I've never read any of Niven's works; I bear Mr. Niven himself a personal animus which prevents me from having any interest in doing so.

(Personally, I always thought a bandersnatch was a sasquatch with the Human/Meta-Human Vampirism Virus. Or is that a wendigo?)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

The Wendigo was the HMHV Virus Sasquach... The bandersnatch was never really elaborated on, but it was most likely a mutation of it affecting Trolls.

Berk Watkins
Student of Quantum Bogodynamics...

Nope! Close, but no...uhm. I refuse to go there ever since about 96 or 97.

Anyway, the Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus affects each of the five primary races in a different way:

Human-->Vampire
Elf-->Banshee
Dwarf-->We don't wanna know! =P
Orc-->Wendigo
Troll-->Dzoo-Noo-Qua

The dzoo-noo-qua is mentioned in one of Robert Charrette's Shadowrun books, probably Find Your Own Truth, I would imagine. It would also have been in one of the official supplements. The wendigo is a central feature of that same book, and its origin as an infected Orc is mentioned in its entry in the SRII base book, IIRC. Ditto for vampires. I don't recall where I heard the banshee-elf connection from, but I know it wasn't from any of the novels. I couldn't tell you which game book, tho. I've heard nothing about bandersnatches anywhere in the SR world, but I could easily see it as the result of an HMHVV sasquatch.

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

Or ghoul or nosferatu, with the Krieger or Bruckner-Langer strains, respectively. Another (unspecified) strain produces loup-garou.

>Elf-->Banshee
>Dwarf-->We don't wanna know! =P

Goblin.

>Orc-->Wendigo
>Troll-->Dzoo-Noo-Qua

Or, with a variant (again unspecified) strain, fomorian.

>I've heard nothing about bandersnatches anywhere
>in the SR world, but I could easily see it as the result of an HMHVV
>sasquatch.

Correct.

(All this from the Shadowrun sourcebook Critters, published 1998.)

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

Offsides

#include <history.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>

It's been taken care of in a previous thread. I'd link to it, but it's the recently locked 'least likely' thread, and I'd not wish a time bomb like that on anyone, so I'l cut and paste the text, as it's Venom!Gryphon at his best and deserves to be shared. :)

- - - - - - - -
Originally posted Jul-29-01 AT 05:43 PM (EDT)
>>That would be because Larry Niven can just fuck right the hell off.
>
>Like, have some venom?
>(wonder why...)

Well, it could be because his writing isn't enjoyable. Or it could be because his theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, his methods are sloppy, and his conclusions are highly questionable. Or maybe it has to do with his misogynistic streak, though admittedly that has been eclipsed on my personal contempt scale by that of Dave Sim (which isn't so much a streak as a load-bearing member). Or it could be because he destroyed the WPI Science Fiction Society's con, Technicon, back in the 80s, and nearly destroyed the SFS itself in the process.

Or you could boil all that down and encapsulate it in the more concise phrase, "he sucks."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
- - - - - - - -

------------------------
Chad Collier--...the 'load bearing member' comment still makes me chuckle...
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

OK, thanks. Somehow I managed to miss that part of the thread (surprise, surprise... :)

Offsides

#include <oops.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>

I remember that. My computer was almost emitting hate waves from that one. A fine quality hate fest like that is always enjoyable.

Matrix Dragon

>--G.

Not "Wendigo", Ben. A "When-do-WE-go?" (as it got several attacks before our street sams). Or if you asked Cat Darensbourg's character (a prepubescent shaman), a "Winnebago".

Ask Zoner. IIRC, he was on the same "bring the cybered wendigo back alive" run I was on, one year before you arrived on campus.

--rR

Ah, the joy of religion....

>Machines don't fit into any of those categories, and the Church sees
>machines that try to be like men - both computer-based AI systems and
>humanoid robots like Dorothy - as abominations, insults flung in the
>face of God. How they react depends on the bent of the subsect any
>given individual is part of. Some, like Professor Harris, abide by
>the laws of the world in which they live, but make it plain that they
>don't like it, and don't accord cybernetic citizens anything but the
>bare legal minimum of civility and privilege. Others are more
>militant about it and push for, or even attempt themselves, the
>destruction of such beings.

BoMmer: "WE must destroy this BLASPHEMY! PURGE it of the taint of evil that contaminates it!"
Optimus Prime: "Ahem."
BoMmer: ".....crap."
Megatron: "Ahem."
BoMmer: ".....crap."

And they were never seen again.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

>--G.

Ben, you realize that the Galactic Church of Man has duplicated the alien classifications in Teenagers from Outer Space.

In TFOS, there are three types of aliens: Near Humans (human), Not Very Near Humans (not quite human, but tolerable), and Real Weirdies (animals).

Whee!

--rR

Funny, I don't remember corresponding levels of social stigma in TFOS.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

In general, there weren't such levels. In TFOS, social stigma had more to do with the type of spacecraft you piloted rather than your number of arms and/or pseudopods. I'm saying that the CoM and TFOS had the same classifications, not the same applications of those classifications.

I and the KKK both classify people in terms of skin color; if you ask me for a physical description of somebody, I'm likely to start with that skin color. It's the first thing I notice, just because color is a strong visual cue. The difference between myself and the KKK is that I don't associate that skin color with other things such as intelligence and right to live unmolested. The Klan does.

--rR

>Ben, you realize that the Galactic Church of Man has duplicated the
>alien classifications in Teenagers from Outer Space.

So, when do we get to see Azalynn Monster Out? }:-{D

Redneck (no, folks, I don't expect it'll happen, it just amuses me)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

It only happens during moments of extreme ecstacy, so you won't be seeing it on-screen...

Man, imagine the back scratches...

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Oh, for Christ's sake.

Never believe anything MegaZone says.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Jesus Gryph, is your humor detector broken or something? I thought this entire thread branch was silly enough that it'd be obvious.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

No, but it's been demonstrated before that some of the other users' aren't in the best of condition. It's called making sure.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Well don't jump down my throat for other people being tools. A simple "BTW, that's not actually true" or something would suffice.

No matter what you do or say, someone is going to take it completely wrong. The email we've received over the years is enough evidence of that.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Um... Duelists of the Rose. It's not as visually impressive as turning into Godzilla, but it gets the job done.

(I think Utena probably does have the TFOS human power "Lose It Completely". :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

P'raps. I was going to say that she had a variant of the "Miracle Girl" power from the last edition (there have been 3, believe it or not). Granting wishes and mysterious wardrobe changes and all that.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to Ohtori Academy as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com

That makes sense. I've never seen the third edition, so I wasn't aware that was in there. (Utena certainly does have it, at least the wardrobe part - that's obvious as early as episode 3. The mysterious alterations to her costume in the duel sequences are one thing, but she just plain could not have been wearing her uniform under that dress. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Machines don't fit into any of those categories, and the Church
>sees machines that try to be like men - both computer-based AI
>systems and humanoid robots like Dorothy - as abominations,
>insults flung in the face of God. How they react depends on the
>bent of the subsect any given individual is part of. Some, like
>Professor Harris, abide by the laws of the world in which they
>live, but make it plain that they don't like it, and don't accord
>cybernetic citizens anything but the bare legal minimum of
>civility and privilege. Others are more militant about it and push
>for, or even attempt themselves, the destruction of such beings.

Ah... racism is such a wonderful thing, isn't it? I bet they use things like Largo as proof of their hatreds, naturally forgetting that many humans are just as bad or worse. I'd love to see these idiots on Cybertron, especially after the return of Unicron. They'd probably pick a fight with Megatron.

Matrix Dragon

Brad, who would galdly demonstrate out front of any CoM meeting place if
they existed in his reality.

I try to avoid that kind of thing, if only because it implies that those kinds of opinions are worth that kind of effort.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Question of tactics, really. When faced with a pernicious idea/opinion/what-have-you, do you repudiate it loud and clear, or do you ignore it and hope it withers away? Do you vary your responses depending on the situation?

I don't know if there is a right answer, much less what it may be.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

It really does depend on the situation. When I find myself with a particularly hateful idea that strikes me as incredibly spurious and a severe perversion (such as this), I just ignore it, since I know that such people tend to wear themselves out, and the worst thing you can do is give them attention.

When it's dealing with something that can be rationally discussed, with reasonable people, I'm more likely to engage in a discussion. I try not to take anything personally, and the tactics I've come to arrive at are to say my piece and then only continue if I feel further clarification/extension is mandated, or if I'm asked a direct question. I don't like repeating myself, and I know how ineffective simply browbeating someone with my opinions can be, especially when dealing with someone as opinionated as myself. (I do allow, though, that my opinions can change, and, indeed, that they have changed, or, at least, grown more complex.)

>I don't know if there is a right answer, much less what it may
>be.

There's never a right answer. What is right depends on the situation.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Oh, I know the right answer.

"Oh Lord, bless this Stun-Gun, and grant me the wisdom and strength to use it in the name of Righteousness, against those who would take Thy Name in vain."

The Church of the Holy Stun-gun knows the way. (The First Law of the Church: "Protect the Weak and Innocent from those that would exploit them or do them harm, as did His Servant and Personal Act, He who was the Stampede, did. Kill not, unless truly needful to save the lives of others.")

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

Gryph left out one point which might need bringing up.

The Church of Man believes that the human genome is the image of God, and thus opposes in the most strenuous terms any genetic engineering or manipulation of said genome. As such, certain groups such as the colonists of Hoffmann, the telepath and hermaphrodite communities of Beta Colony, and clones of any stripe get to 'enjoy' the same level of hostility that self-aware machine intelligences get from the Church.

Clones have it worst. The genetic-engineered subraces like Hoffmanites and Betan herms, although opposed by the Church, do not have factions of the Church seeking their immediate death. (So far as anyone -knows-, anyway.) Clones, however, share the same spot as automata in the Church's eyes; "they should all be destroyed."

Redneck (at least, I -think- that's how it works)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

So how do Detians fit into this?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Badly.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Damn, they must hate the WDF. A group of (in their disturbed minds) heretics that are some of the greatest heroes the galaxy has ever seen. And the Federations Order of the Eternal Knight would give them heart attacks.

Hmmm... Seems to me that our least favorite professor has a pet hate with damn near everyone in Kate's group of friends. Robot, alien, gene-engineered, they have their own opinions...

Matrix Dragon
"For a quick laugh, offer the COM's priests a dose of Omega-2."

>
>Damn, they must hate the WDF. A group of (in their disturbed minds)
>heretics that are some of the greatest heroes the galaxy has ever
>seen.

I think I can see a news buelltin from the multiverse right now.

"WDF memorial park was vandalized sometime last night. The park, which was created in 2490 to honor the founders of the Wedge Defense Force, was found to have several flora uprooted and dug up, and many fixtures had slogans commonly associtated with Humanist groups such as the Church of Man spray painted on them. The local head of the Church has refused to comment on the matter as have the above mentioned founders"

(Who by the way are sick and tired of reporters asking what they think every time these idiots grafitti a likeness of themselves somewhere)

IMHO, horribly. First-generation Detians aren't just a polluted genome, we chose to do it to ourselves. It is one thing to be an abomination from the get-go, but much worse to forsake God's genome and abominate one's self.

Between that and cross-breeding with a "squirrel" (Salusian), I figure my avatar's face has graced not a few dartboards.

--rR

Yeah, they would think of it that way. They'd consider all the benefits evil as well, despite the fact it's saved lives, and the galaxy on countless occasions.

Strange thought. What would happen if they knew the truth about Corwin? A Demigod with Detian DNA?

>Between that and cross-breeding with a "squirrel"
>(Salusian), I figure my avatar's face has graced not
>a few dartboards.

Oh yeah, I forgot the human-looking form isn't a Salusians original body. They really would hate you.

Matrix Dragon

Actually, I figure they would consider your last question redundant. Detians are practically immortal, and the WDF Detians have parleyed that immortality into positions of great power. Given that "Demigod" is really "honking powerful being", WDF Detians are demigods, in a way.

Then again, for them to fully understand that Corwin is a demigod (or a demigod-in-training, for the time being), they would have to understand that Asgard and Olympus exist outside of dusty tomes. Learning the existence of these realms and their gods would shake almost any faith down to its core.

And the reaction of the CoM would depend on what sort of a church it was. Is the CoM, in fact, a church that worships a higher being or beings? Or is it just a racist hate club? If it is merely a hate club like neo-nazis or the KKK, then any such gods or demigods are instantly the Enemy. If the former, the answer could be anything, and the way it reaches that answer could be interesting...

>>Between that and cross-breeding with a "squirrel"
>>(Salusian), I figure my avatar's face has graced not
>>a few dartboards.
>
>Oh yeah, I forgot the human-looking form isn't a Salusians original
>body. They really would hate you.
>
>Matrix Dragon

Let's just say that my avatar looks up the local CoM wherever he goes, just to keep the proper distance...

--rR

And never piss off a Hoffmanite in the cafeteria. "Hoffmanite throwing fork. don't make me use the spoon..." :)

Offsides

#include <junior.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>

The problem is that, while some fanatics are that stupid, most have just enough of a survival instinct to know that that would be an inherently bad idea. The Klan may have a march down Main Street of Quittman, Georgia, and, as a result, be attacked by one of the residents (they crossed his property line and ignored repeated warnings; the Wizard was shot in the leg with a 20 ga.), but they won't repeat the incident in someplace like Watts or Harlem.

On a slightly related note, does the UF continuum include the other Genner worlds of the Foglio-verse? I suspect that the Psmyth mass-mind might find the PsiCorps to a bit irritating. I suspect that doing a deep probe on the populace of an entire planet all at once would be as difficult as it sounds.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to Studio Foglio as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com

I don't think we've decided as yet. I personally favor the existence of New Hong Kong and the presence of a 'Velvet Fist' franchise on the CFA New Orleans. I'm also -against- the Gallimaufry, as we already have institutions in place or planned to serve the same purpose.

I also really, -really- like the Klegdixal, though I don't have anything for them to -do- just now, and that's the key point; generally stuff gets included into UF when one of us thinks it's cool -and- talks Gryphon into agreeing.

Redneck (publishes Jason Meador's art portfolios, including one with Washuu in PJs holding the Winslow on the cover)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

They're also NOT the Church of Man of the Stars. ^_^

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Really must pick up the rest of that series someday...)

A decent variant on the theme with slightly warped orthodox chrisitianty as a foil would be Dave & Eric Flint's Belisaurius series. Better writing, much more sci-plot. Lots of Deus ex machina. They, however, have started to kill off some nice main characters, and thus are more refreshing that the General series in this respect.

A not-so-decent variant on the theme would be David Weber and John Ringo's March to the Sea books. The plot isn't 1/2 as interesting and the shenanighans they go through to use their technology to reverse engineer the industrial revolution are ridiculous. I kept wanting to ask which game level they were playing. If you're willing to jump over the plot holes, it's a wild ride. They really should have posted "Abandon all reason, ye who enter here" on the front cover.

Oh, and the protagonist is sexy in a dread Pirate Roberts sort a way with some teenage angst (thank god I'm, done with that) mixed in to make him "conflicted". Which is a nice change from middle aged men and married guys saving the world. If you're interested in that sort of thing.

yours,
t.
and now we're really off topic...
Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Heh. The historical parallels were kinda fun in that one, tho. And I had just as good a time loathing the Chosen as I did the Draka (who were ALSO Stirling's fault), so it was kinda fun.

Does it count as a ripoff if you're reusing your own ideas/concepts/fictional-villianous-societies?

For the record, I have the first one, whatever the title was, and The Chosen, and have enjoyed both. Both Drake and Stirling can be more than a bit grim for my tastes, but they also tell very fun stories.

>A decent variant on the theme with slightly warped orthodox
>chrisitianty as a foil would be Dave & Eric Flint's Belisaurius
>series. Better writing, much more sci-plot. Lots of Deus ex machina.
> They, however, have started to kill off some nice main characters,
>and thus are more refreshing that the General series in this respect.

Own 'em _all_. Also 1632, and am currently greatly enjoying my history class. We've just reached the Thirty Years War. ^_^

>A not-so-decent variant on the theme would be David Weber and John
>Ringo's March to the Sea books. The plot isn't 1/2 as interesting and
>the shenanighans they go through to use their technology to reverse
>engineer the industrial revolution are ridiculous. I kept wanting to
>ask which game level they were playing. If you're willing to jump
>over the plot holes, it's a wild ride. They really should have posted
>"Abandon all reason, ye who enter here" on the front cover.

*chortle* Actually, I tried to read the sample chapters and just -choked-, which, considering my tolerance for crap literature, is preeetty rare. They're currently the only David Weber books that I have _NO_ plans to read.

>Oh, and the protagonist is sexy in a dread Pirate Roberts sort a way
>with some teenage angst (thank god I'm, done with that) mixed in to
>make him "conflicted". Which is a nice change from middle aged men
>and married guys saving the world. If you're interested in that sort
>of thing.

*blinkblink* I'm straight, thank you...

> and now we're really off topic...

Booyah!

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Discordian in Training)

Quick note here... according to S.M. Stirling (Usenet post), the Chosen came about because Jim Baen (his publisher), being seriously squicked off about the ending of The Stone Dogs, wanted to see a Draka-analogue lose.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

>>Does it count as a ripoff if you're reusing your own
>>ideas/concepts/fictional-villianous-societies?
>
>Quick note here... according to S.M. Stirling (Usenet post), the
>Chosen came about because Jim Baen (his publisher), being seriously
>squicked off about the ending of The Stone Dogs, wanted to see
>a Draka-analogue lose.

I think that those two sentiments are going to be pretty much universal among anybody who's read the book. That was the most utterly horrifying and revolting "weapon" I've ever heard of.

YECH!

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Doesn't want to meet anyone who disagrees with The Honored Mr. Baen.)

I think it demonstates how seriously they took 'to desire the goal is to desire the means' philosophy. In the NBC triangle, nukes are the LEAST dangerous option.

I admire their resolution. Having said that, I'd rather admire that sort of resolution from a historical point of view and at a great distance.

And The Chosen is probably a good view of what would have happened if the Draka had lost.

drakensisthered

Yes, that's where I got 'drakensis' from.

I mentioned this earlier - the same way they deal with robots. They think of them as abominations - insults to their God, in this case mocking the ineffable ways in which He created the mind of Man (rather than the form, which is what humaniform robots do). Exactly what form that reaction takes depends on the individual's willingness to destroy property; just because they loathe things doesn't necessarily mean they'll attack on sight. I think the 1995 Buick Roadmaster is an abomination, but I don't go out of my way to wreck them.

>2. How do they deal with most technology - are they Luddites?

No, not at all. They're just affronted by the idea that a machine can take upon itself an air of humanity. A transporter doesn't think it's a person and petition for legal rights; neither does a food synthesizer or a datacomm terminal.

>3. How do they interact with Boomers?

Badly.

>4. How does this guy do his research? I thought boomers and AIs were
>the keepers and locators of most knoweldge/resources in libraries --
>or have I assumed to much?

The bulk of library computers walk the fine line - talking expert systems can be grudgingly tolerated because they're a good tool for the job and they don't actually arrogate sentience unto themselves. They have to be watched carefully for signs that they're getting ideas about their place in the order of things, of course, but uppity computer systems are easily dealt with for the most part. True cybernetic intelligences are, fortunately for the Church, fairly rare. You won't find one in your local public library, though the expert system running the catalog may give a good impression if you don't stray outside its areas of "expertise".

(To use a Star Trek analogy, the computer on board the Enterprise is an expert system. It talks pleasantly and seems almost human, and can interpret instructions with a fairly high degree of intelligence, but it isn't self-aware and doesn't claim to be. It's just a machine with a humanish interface. That's somewhat grotesque and unsettling to a Manist, but not an affront to God.)

>5. Does this mean that Eve is hated by them?

Those that know of her, odds are, yes.

>6. Hell, do they even know that Eve, Vision, and R-types girls (sorry
>brain cramp) exist?

I'm sure some do - there are those within the Church who make it their business to know the electronic world, and truly sophisticated disembodied artificial sentiences are uncommon enough that a fairly net-savvy individual can rattle off most of their names, at least the ones who don't go out of their way to conceal themselves.

>7. Do they even accept medical help or implants?

Sure - it's not technology in general they have a problem with, it's artificial intelligence (or maybe more properly, artificial sentience). They'd have problems dealing with a Starfleet Emergency Medical Hologram, but then, who doesn't?

>8. That being said, how common are AIs in this universe?

Already answered above.

>9. Why would a man like this teach at a place like Worchester Prep?

It's a good school, prestigious, pays well. The Literature Department is quite highly regarded. There's no reason not to. Until this year, it had neither a robot student nor a campus AI. Professor Harris isn't very happy about either of those developments, but he's not the purge-them-from-the-world type, just the keep-them-away-from-me type.

And this isn't directed specifically at you, Trig, but for approximately the ten billionth time, there is no "h" in "Worcester".

>10. Under what conditions did this religion arise?

Splinter group of fundie types who got squicked out by the idea of artificial sentience, met up with other like-minded types, it grew from there... same way pretty much any religion gets started.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Rather, I think the critical question would be "How the heck did this person get hired in the first place?" not why does he work there.

And the answer would be that for the most part, (and especially until after tenured) he kept his religious beliefs to himself, and played the game, just like any other teacher. Look at any college or private school. the "Charecters" are the ones who have job security... new hires who's prospects are in doubt tend to stay close to the 'party line' as defined by the dean of thier department.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

Oh, that's quite simple. He's a well-educated, highly qualified professor of Earth literature of the 19th through 22nd centuries. His religious beliefs don't enter into it - the Earth Alliance still pays lip service to the United Federation of Planets ideal of religious freedom for all, so it wasn't permitted to be a criterion in the decision of whether to offer him the position. He's a solid, well-trained, well-regarded educator. The incident involving R. Dorothy was tactless, but it was neither illegal nor in violation of the letter of the school charter. Dorothy isn't a citizen of anyplace. She isn't even a sentient being. She's present in her classes only by the individual sufferance of the instructors, and that particular instructor chose not to suffer her. He should have handled it more gracefully, but it's hardly a matter for discipline.

If she were Turing-certified, that would be another matter; but then, the Institute did encourage her to go that route before enrolling, and had to be convinced to let her do it the other way round...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Offsides

#include <spite.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>

He'd find some other reason to get rid of her. He's a tenured professor. It doesn't have to be a particularly good one.

She wouldn't bother, though. Anything he teaches she can learn from Professor Chandrijan, who's happy to have her in his division.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Last time that I checked, Equal Opportunity Employer means that any person, no matter what race, credo, or religion (emphasis on the last) can get hired, provided they best meet the qualifications for the position. I suspect that, dogmatic thought processes aside, the good Professor probably knows his stuff.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to TEA as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com

11. Why, why, -why- can't people learn to start new topics when they post followup questions?

--truss,
really freakin' tired of sifting through 50-article threads.

Beats me. You're an admin, lock the thread.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/