Sisterhood.

Sith.

Makes sense...

--rR
Disclaimer: Unless stated otherwise, I do not speak with canonical force

To counter which part of them?

>Sisterhood.
>
>Sith.
>
>Makes sense...

<mutter> But I -liked- the Bene Gesserit. So OK, they're full of themselves, but they're still cool. It's not often you get boatloads of power and fear from women in scifi, really it's not...

And anyway, Jessica rocked.

-- Juniper

"Lift the world's lid!" ... "For the Revolution of the Restaurant!"
-- Saionji and Miki

The part of them that represent all of the bits of Dune (which, from previous discussions, reads as 'most of it') that Gryphon can't stand? :)

Personally I think it's a worthy matchup, and would even be a nifty way to describe what drove the Jedi to develop lightsabers in the first place. I know I'd feel a bit better having one while fighting someone who could decapitate me with a single well-placed, impossibly fast kick. Heh.

>>Sisterhood.
>>
>>Sith.
>>
>>Makes sense...

But would the Sitherhood be the other main opponents of the Knights of the STRAIGHT and Narrow Path?

Oh, that was bad. I'm so sorry.

><mutter> But I -liked- the Bene Gesserit. So OK, they're full of
>themselves, but they're still cool. It's not often you get boatloads
>of power and fear from women in scifi, really it's not...

Specific sisters of the order were well centered and genuinely cool. For the most part they're too steeped in the dogma of the Sisterhood itself to reach that point, though. They'd probably get along very well with Surak Vulcans, though (if I said that right...my ST knowledge is a little thin).

>And anyway, Jessica rocked.

A#1 example of the 'cool' type described above. :)

------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>Personally I think it's a worthy matchup, and would even be a nifty
>way to describe what drove the Jedi to develop lightsabers in the
>first place. I know I'd feel a bit better having one while fighting
>someone who could decapitate me with a single well-placed, impossibly
>fast kick. Heh.

Hmmm. I dunno; the Bene Gesserit's stated goal was to create a messianic man, the Kwisatz Haderach. Their avenues to power really didn't allow men to achieve more than a small modicum of power; the only one who could become a male Bene Gesserit would be the Kwisatz Haderach. Their methods -- the breeding program -- might be the type of thing that Jedi might interfere with, if it threatened whatever government they worked for. However, Jedi tend to deal with more immediate threats, and something that subtle could easily escape their notice.

>>>Sisterhood.
>>>
>>>Sith.
>>>
>>>Makes sense...

...You're kidding, right?

The Sith began as an offshoot of the Jedi Order, in the canon universe. If the BG exist or existed in UF, I suppose that a female Jedi who left the order and joined the Sisterhood could well have turned to the Dark Side to promote the Bene Gesserit's agenda, eventually leading to the Sith.

>Specific sisters of the order were well centered and genuinely cool.
>For the most part they're too steeped in the dogma of the Sisterhood
>itself to reach that point, though. They'd probably get along very
>well with Surak Vulcans, though (if I said that right...my ST
>knowledge is a little thin).

Surakian Vulcans, maybe? In ST canon they're just "Vulcans"; they don't have any real name to qualify them as being any different. Vulcans, as a rule, follow the Way of Surak, and claim to be unemotional, though there are specific examples of Vulcans who seem to be a bit on the arrogant side (such as the Vulcans who played a baseball game against the crew of Deep Space Nine). In ST canon, the Vulcans who disagreed with the Way of Surak, even though they agreed that they had been on the verge of self-destruction, left the planet and became the Romulans. So the Vulcans from Vulcan itself have been brought up in a culture where they're taught the discipline to suppress and (theoretically, anyway) eliminate their emotions. They just don't have any model for any other kind of behavior when they're growing up. I'm personally under the impression that, despite everything they say about logic, canon Vulcans aren't completely emotionless; they simply don't allow it to affect their judgment, except when logic does not provide a clear answer. Remember, Spock has completed the Way of Kolinahr, and he says to the Vulcan ensign in Undiscovered Country (I forget her name) that "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end." And while I'd have to sit through at least part of The Motionless Picture again to see the only other canon example of Kolinahr adepts (or whatever they're supposed to be called), I'm under the impression that such attitudes are not uncommon among mature Vulcans. I don't have any of the books from the LUG iteration of the Trek RPG, so I can't say for sure, and they're not really canon, anyway.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

From what I gathered, its not the elimination, nor suppression, that's the goal. Rather, its the conrol of emotions, so that they don't control you. Unfortunatly, everyone (including mainline vulcans) seems to think that means being an emotionless logic driven robot. I seem to recall at least one novel (ok, they're not considered cannon) where a vulcan has admited "Oh, we have them, we just don't show them or act on them" or words to that effect.

Somehow, I have a feeling that IF the BG exist in the UF backhistory, their existance really isnt tied to Jedi history, etc...
___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

Um... the evil, ruthless, manipulative, take-over-the-universe, torture-people-for-fun part?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Huh. You have a -completely- different take on the Bene Gesserit than I do, Gryph. Interesting.

I wouldn't call them evil. Ruthless in the persuit of their goal, manipulative certainly, but they were looking to make a perfect human. I'm not sure that's evil. They certainly didn't see it as such - they saw it as the salvation of mankind. There's -nobody- blameless in any of those books, but the only person I might have seen as truly evil would be Baron Harkonnen.

I will have to reread Dune. I don't think their stated aim was to take over the Universe. I always got the impression they thought they had better things to do than that.

Torture-people-for-fun? No. Torture people to test them in persuit of their aim? Yes. And I won't dispute that the Reverend Mother might have enjoyed hurting Paul, but I think at least part of that was personal and revenge on his mother. I don't think enjoying it was standard practice.

<shrug> Your universe, I'll be interested to see what you do with the Bene Gesserit.

-- Juniper

"Lift the world's lid!" ... "For the Revolution of the Restaurant!"
-- Saionji and Miki

>I wouldn't call them evil. Ruthless in the persuit of their goal,
>manipulative certainly, but they were looking to make a perfect human.
> I'm not sure that's evil. They certainly didn't see it as such -
>they saw it as the salvation of mankind. There's -nobody- blameless
>in any of those books, but the only person I might have seen as truly
>evil would be Baron Harkonnen.

I've only seen the Dune movies, so take this with however you (regrding ANYONE who has read the series) see fit... Nazis were just looking to make a perfect human, and they saw their pursuits as the salvation of mankind. I think it's all about the means used to get to the ends when trying to "better" a society.

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

Point taken, but afaik, the Bene Gesserit didn't kill off large groups of people who didn't fit in their program while doing it. They did it through a weird breeding program instead, and assumed the lesser beings would simply leave them alone.

I'll grant their definition of Human vs. Animal needs some work, though. (That could have gotten very ugly.)

-- Juniper

"Lift the world's lid!" ... "For the Revolution of the Restaurant!"
-- Saionji and Miki

OK! Everybody out of the pool, Godwin's Law has been invoked. No need to hang around here any longer. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

To be honest, most likely as little as possible. I liked Dune, but not that much, and I've got so many other plates spinning now that if I can let a few of them fall, so much the better.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

I am. The ends do not justify the means. The Khmer Rouge had nothing but good intentions, remember.

>I will have to reread Dune. I don't think their stated aim was
>to take over the Universe. I always got the impression they thought
>they had better things to do than that.

From my reading of Dune, they had -already- taken over the universe, behind the scenes. That way nothing could interfere in their eugenics program.

Redneck (could -very- easily see the Jedi being founded by Paul Atredies himself)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

Sure. Think about it. What sort of powers do the Jedi have?

Jedi are exceptional warriors, and have incredible speed and strength (Qui-Gon and Kenobi fleeing droids in Ep 1, Luke able to make incredible anime leaps in Eps 4-5). Prana-bindu insures that BG acolytes have that.

Jedi can command the weak of mind. The BG call that "the Voice".

Jedi can see into the future. IMHO, Jedi fight so well and can do impossible things like parry blaster fire because they do this all the time, fighting a half second into the future. The BG Reverend Mothers (the ones who get high on dead worm puke...er...Water of Life) can do this. Paul, the Kwisatz Haderach, was the first male to be able to do this. The idea of the KH breeding program was that Paul and all his descendents would be able to do this. Jedi simply do this without drugs.

Then again, Jedi are telekenetic; nowhere in the Dune canon do we see this.

As a parting shot: the more I look at Dune and Star Wars, the more I think of the latter as a space opera version of the former.

--rR

a friend of mine did a paper in high school where he matched up elements of wheel of time, dune, and star wars with the bible

...Uh, what Bene Gesserit were you reading about, Gryph?

Evil? That's a subjective call. I wouldn't say so, though; they, as a rule, weren't malicious in intent or deeds. Maybe in specific instances, perhaps, but as a rule, no. The only all-out Evil personage I can think of in the first book would be Baron Harkonnen and his progeny. In the later books, there is the warped version of the Bene Gesserit who show up, whose eyes turn orange when they get pissed. They're much nastier than the Bene Gesserit.

Ruthless? Certainly, in some ways, in pursuit of their specific goals. But not unilaterally. The Bene Gesserit were many things, and many of them were kind and compassionate (such as Jessica). The Reverend Mothers tended to be ruthless, in that they didn't consider such things as love or human compassion in selecting for their breeding program.

Take over the universe? Not as such. They wanted to create a male Bene Gesserit, the Kwisatz Haderach, who would be a messiah to the people of the galaxy. Not necessarily a political leader. That was Paul's work, and he most certainly was not under their control.

Torture people for fun? Nope. Never. They would never torture someone without a specific purpose. What the Reverend Mother did to Paul was to test him, and also as vindictive as she'd allow herself to be towards Jessica for fouling up their breeding program by having a boy instead of a girl.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

If anything they'd be against torturing people for fun (well, if it was a Bene Gesserit doing it) because it would be a 'weakness' on the part of the torturer. Unecessary cruelty is a big no-no. Necessary cruelty on the other hand...

Frankly, if they turn up I'd expect them to be a radical offshoot of the Church of Man, seeking to produce some sort of ultimate human...

And (be scared here) Detians are PART of their plan... 'cause they've been pulling Lord F's strings since 1600 or so.

Well, perhaps not - but they'd be a great candidate for the great evil Wolfie mentioned in UF2 and never got back to.

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'

Their "specific purpose" is high-handed holier-than-thou bullshit that smells strongly of a justification for making people whimper and squirm to me. The hypocrisy in that segment is the most naked example I've seen since the last time I read anything about J. Edgar Hoover. Bleah. If that's supposed to be an agenda to better mankind, I'd prefer remaining unbettered, thanks. Shadowy organizations which profess to be acting for "the common good" generally aren't, and in my eyes the BG are no exception to that rule.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Not as such. The Bene Gesserit saw greed as a weakness; the merit of their goal is dubious at best, but in the context of the book, it did succeed, though the result of their breeding program was out of their control. Which was part of Herbert's point. They set about to create a messiah, and expected him to be less than such. After all, the definition of a messiah is to save mankind from something; in this case, it's corruption. The Harkonnens were thoroughly corrupt, and the Corrinos losing ground to their machinations. The Emperor was losing power steadily, and it took a coup by Paul to restore order to the galaxy.

>Bleah. If that's supposed to be an agenda to better mankind, I'd
>prefer remaining unbettered, thanks.

On a personal level, no argument here. I'll go into this further.

> Shadowy organizations which
>profess to be acting for "the common good" generally aren't, and in my
>eyes the BG are no exception to that rule.

See, the Bene Gesserit had boundaries that they were reluctant to cross, but their fatal mistake would have been to train an Atreides daughter as a Bene Gesserit and then marry her to a Harkonnen son, and then produce the Kwisatz Haderach from that union (as was their original plan), for not only would he have been as rebellious as Paul, he would likely have been as corrupt as his paternal forebears. Jessica went against that, and the Bene Gesserit did not take well to that, but she did, ultimately, make the correct choice, for she did it out of love. That was Herbert's point, I think. The BG's ends were dubious, perhaps, and their means were cold, but they were not a malicious order. What political power they did accumulate -- which was always of the behind-the-throne sort -- was simply a means to an end.

As for how they compare to the Jedi, think about this: Jedi routinely lie, deceive, and manipulate, to achieve their ends. That is canon. ("Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father.") That their intent is good is what generally justifies it. The Bene Gesserit are an order with a specific agenda, a spiritual one that takes advantage of a political system. They're cold, ruthless, and single-minded, but they are not and never have been malicious, greedy, or self-centered. On an individual basis, Sisters and Reverend Mothers are wise and compassionate healers and teachers; as for their agenda, it's clear that their control over it isn't as absolute as the kind of organization you're describing would have to have. Otherwise, they would have arranged for Paul's death and ordered Jessica to have a daughter.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>On an individual basis, Sisters and Reverend Mothers are wise and
>compassionate healers and teachers; as for their agenda, it's clear
>that their control over it isn't as absolute as the kind of
>organization you're describing would have to have. Otherwise, they
>would have arranged for Paul's death and ordered Jessica to have a
>daughter.

Maybe I read something into the book that wasn't there, but I thought that was -precisely- what they did... arranging House Atredies' move to Arrakis and the assassination of Paul and his father. They certainly had the influence to do it.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

The move to Arrakis... probably. I'd have to go reread the book. The assassination of Leto, and attempted assassinations of Paul, were the work of the Harkonnens. Baron Harkonnen didn't tolerate the presence of BG -- he barely even tolerated a Mentat, and only that much because he owned the man body and soul -- and while they certainly had some hold on the Emperor (though not as much of a hold as the Guild), their influence over House Harkonnen was limited at best. And with Paul's birth, the BG were pretty much stuck with him or his offspring as the potential Kwisatz Haderach, since Jessica made it pretty plain that she wouldn't let them anywhere near any more children she might have. And when she became a Reverend Mother in her own right, and thus empowered Alia, she could make sure of that.

I wouldn't say that the BG were the most powerful entity in Dune. The Guild, since they control space travel, and at the end of the first book Paul, since he was both Emperor and ruler of Arrakis, sole source of the spice.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Nani???? I must have missed something, because I shure didn't recall Paul displacing the Emperor! Or at least, not officially, but he did basicly say "This place is mine, and if you suckers ever want another gram of spice, better not piss me off..."

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

I don't recall without rereading the book if he took the title or not, but the whole reason he married the Emperor's daughter was so that he'd have legitimate power over the Imperium.

But, as Gryph has said, this is going waaaaaaaaay off topic. So I'll end this here.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

To just quickly confirm and be done with it, yes, he did. In the books he even moved the seat of power in the emprie from Kaitan to Arrakis.

------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

Heh... my take on that was always that ole Ben was just simplifying a very complicated and morally gray-edged story that he knew Luke was too stupid to understand, in the interests of not being there trying to explain it to him all week. :)

>Otherwise, they
>would have arranged for Paul's death and ordered Jessica to have a
>daughter.

They tried, on both counts. It didn't work.

(And this isn't the "argue about Dune" bboard, so I'm not planning to go any further with this, JSYK. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/