>Since all of my discussions inevitably come to video games--What is
>your favorite?

Tempest 2000 on my Atari Jaguar with the custom rotary controller I picked up. I'll be buying a NUON DVD deck just so I can play Tempest 3000 and once again worship the Yak.

(Now you know why Jeff 'Yak' Minter is in NXE.)

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>Since all of my discussions inevitably come to video games--What is
>>your favorite?
>
>Tempest 2000 on my Atari Jaguar with the custom rotary controller I
>picked up. I'll be buying a NUON DVD deck just so I can play Tempest
>3000 and once again worship the Yak.
>
>(Now you know why Jeff 'Yak' Minter is in NXE.)
>

Myself being a fan of Tempest, I never managed to get ahold of a Jaguar to play Tempest 2000. I played Tempest X3 on the Playstation, though the controls were clumsy and hard to use.
I have never heard of the NUON DVD deck or Tempest 3000, but I'm intrigued...any websites or such that I could look at to find out more?

-Sabishii
"Cash weighs money."

>-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
>Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
>Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Myself being a fan of Tempest, I never managed to get ahold of a
>Jaguar to play Tempest 2000.

eBay these days... Actually I might still have some links in my bookmarks to small gamer sites that sell them cheap.

>I played Tempest X3 on the Playstation,

Which was lame...

>I have never heard of the NUON DVD deck or Tempest 3000, but I'm
>intrigued...any websites or such that I could look at to find out
>more?

http://www.nuon-tech.com/

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

All I have to say about that, really.

Hey, I didn't like EVA. The only good thing was a cool plot and Asuka. :P Liked FLCL even less. Heck, if it wasn't for Karekano, I'd say we'd be better off without Gainax altogether. ^_^ But despite this, I still like NXE. I honestly believe it's superior to the original.

>Heck, if it wasn't for Karekano, I'd say we'd be better off
>without Gainax altogether.

Hey -- don't be dissin' Gunbuster. ;)

--truss.

>... it tells me there's just no pleasin' some people.
It's not that your stories don't entertain me, they do. But they would be so much better if they had poorly spelled fat jokes randomly inserted into the text.

"well, it's
been fun, gentlemen," a tasty said, dashing back to the airport terminal building. ha ha it is more fun to be fat. "ta!!!" a tasty called after the melty creature as
a tasty sprinted through the doors into the deserted baggage concourse.it is a retarded! ha ha ha! that the airport was evacuated was both good and bad: good
in that there were no crowds to get in the way and airport security officers to help the g-men, like shit in that there were no crowds to hide in and airport
security officers to misdirect into hindering the g-men. IT IS STUCK TOGETHER WITH STICKYFAT. still, one makes do.i am so sad to be fat! dj hopped a smarte carte, using it as an impromptu
skateboard to pick up some extra speed across the baggage area, then ditching it and banging through a fire door. estamos bailando. in hats!!!

See that? Pure genius.

>
>>Or did SEELE sent a cute little email
>>to NERV to inform them that "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US. YOU HAVE
>>NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME." and I just didn't notice?
>
>I was going to do that with one of the TMP terminals, but I decided it
>wasn't really Lilith's style. If Tycho had openly changed sides,
>maybe...

yes. YES. That would have kicked tons of ass.

...Now I'm going to have to ask you to delete this post before the INTERNET FUNY POLICE see it and find out that I like AYB.

>
>>4)If someone can tell me how to put that little flamey icon on my
>>posts, I'd be much obliged.
>
>You can't. It's just there to inform the reader that there are more
>than ten posts in the thread.
Oh, I thought it was some sort of warning signal that there was inflammatory material within. Nevermind.

>
>(And if you start artificially inflating post counts just to get it to
>show up, I will have to destroy you.)
Now, now. Read over my post one more time. Do you see anything resembling U ALL SUXORZ U=FAGGIZ? Because that's the type of thing I would have written if I were the type of person to try a mega-retarded stunt like that.

>See that? Pure genius.

Uh... sure.

>>I was going to do that with one of the TMP terminals, but I decided it
>>wasn't really Lilith's style. If Tycho had openly changed sides,
>>maybe...
>
>yes. YES. That would have kicked tons of ass.

Heh heh. Perhaps it's the sort of message that would be sent out by a semi-crashed AI in the throes of Rampancy...

... or perhaps not. Believe it or not, I'm not actually sure that I'm that much of a cheez pirate. :)

>Oh, I thought it was some sort of warning signal that there was
>inflammatory material within. Nevermind.

So did I, the first time I saw it, but it turns out just to mean "This thread is hot!"

>Now, now. Read over my post one more time. Do you see anything
>resembling U ALL SUXORZ U=FAGGIZ? Because that's the type of thing I
>would have written if I were the type of person to try a mega-retarded
>stunt like that.

You never know anymore... some people come off as perfectly rational individuals with decent typing 5k1llz, and then they go and do some damnfool thing like that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Creative criticism is one thing (and a welcome thing it
>>is!) but the the characterization of, for example, DJ Croft as an
>>author-insertion character is unfounded and ludicrous.
>No, not really. It's a staple of self insertion for a character to be
>incredibly cool and get the anime lady(ies) of his choice to fall in
>love with him. Take a look at the open self-insertion stories on this
>website. All of the SIs are incredibly cool and have the anime
>lady(ies) of their choice fall in love with them. Now take a look at
>DJ. He is incredibly cool, yadda yadda yadda. The only difference
>between them is, real names are used. And for that reason alone, they
>are much less annoying than DJ.
>

Actually, this begs the question: where is the dividing line between SI fanfic and non-SI fanfic with original characters? Is there a generally-agreed-to definition somewhere, or is it basically everyone for themselves? And is it possible for an author, in some cases, to write SI without even being aware of it? (I'm not saying that you've done this, Gryphon, I'm just raising the question as a point of general interest.)

>The Eyrie
>>writing team has never shied away from writing stories with their
>>alter egos as main characters -- indeed, it's some of their best work.
>> NXE, however, is not one of these stories.
>That's much less significant when you realize what anime they are
>writing for. Only 14 year olds can pilot EVAs. I'm not entirely sure
>how old the authors are, but I'm betting they're not 14. What are they
>going to do, use age regression?
>

<shrugs> If you're going to make yourself a character in a story, I don't see regressing your age as being that much more of a stretch.

>
>And if he's a bit larger-than-life, so what? We love
>>a good hero.
>You love a good hero. Some of us prefer someone with real, sympathetic
>problems. Some of us also prefer a hero who is at least slightly
>believable and who doesn't have to overshadow everyone, constantly, in
>order to prove how cool he is.
>

Personally, it depends on what mood I'm in that day.

>3)You've got to represent...what, exactly? Eyrie fanboys? Try to be
>clear.

Two questions.

One: what constitutes an Eyrie fanboy? What character traits would such a person exhibit?

Two: just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of Eyrie's other works?

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

>Actually, this begs the question: where is the dividing line between
>SI fanfic and non-SI fanfic with original characters? Is there a
>generally-agreed-to definition somewhere, or is it basically everyone
>for themselves? And is it possible for an author, in some cases, to
>write SI without even being aware of it? (I'm not saying that you've
>done this, Gryphon, I'm just raising the question as a point of
>general interest.)
I think every character is, to some extent, an Author Avatar, in that the author puts a part of themselves in them. Even canon characters in fanfics could be considered avatars, since the author still has control of their every move. An SI, whether 'in' or 'out' of the closet, is different from other avatars because the author is using them as a mouthpeice, or to fulfil fanboyish fantasies of being the hero who comes to save the day (sound familiar?) And no, I don't really think there's anything wrong with this as long as I get to make fun of it if the author doesn't get too into it(like Gonterman), or makes it nothing more than a textual ego-wank fest(like Tom Dyron).

><shrugs> If you're going to make yourself a character in a story, I don't see regressing your age as being that much more of a stretch.
...that would be quite funny.
>
>
>>
>>And if he's a bit larger-than-life, so what? We love
>>>a good hero.
>>You love a good hero. Some of us prefer someone with real, sympathetic
>>problems. Some of us also prefer a hero who is at least slightly
>>believable and who doesn't have to overshadow everyone, constantly, in
>>order to prove how cool he is.
>>
>
>Personally, it depends on what mood I'm in that day.
>
>>3)You've got to represent...what, exactly? Eyrie fanboys? Try to be
>>clear.
>
>Two questions.
>
>One: what constitutes an Eyrie fanboy? What character traits would
>such a person exhibit?
>
>Two: just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of Eyrie's other
>works?
>
>
>Eric J. Heckathorn
>ericjh@stargate.net

><shrugs> If you're going to make yourself a character in a story, I don't see regressing your age as being that much more of a stretch.

BTDTGTTS. WL - started writing it around 1994, still takes place around 1994. It is now 2001. We're writing us into the story ~7 years younger than we are.

Actually, GW is the same way...

And HL...

All of those more 'real time' has past than story time, so the authors are now rather older than their avatars.

And, I still say DJ is not SI. I've known Gryph since 1991, DJ is very much not Gryph.

As has been said, we're not exactly shy about doing SI - we were doing SI before anyone in the (online) anime fanfic community called it SI, and before there was any stigma attached to it.

Personally I have never made any bones about it - I write to have fun, and some of it is unabashed pure male ego power trip fantasy material.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>And, I still say DJ is not SI. I've known Gryph since 1991, DJ is
>very much not Gryph.

No, DJ is most definitely *not* SI. He is an archetypical (replace "Mary Sue" with your favorite masculinization, such as "Gary Stu" or "Wesley Crusher"), which, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. It *can* be a bad thing, if the character isn't likable (like, say, Wesley Crusher), but DJ never had me rolling my eyes (except, as an X-Files 'shipper, I don't really like the idea of Mulder being with anyone other than Scully, but I deal with it since it was a one-night stand).

Some of DJ's Mary Sue-isms: He's not named after Gryph, but he's named after Derek Bacon and Josh Brandt (wasn't sure about the "Joshua" part, but I picked up on "Derek" right away; the story about Derek's visit with Teleute is particularly touching to me now, since I lost my mother a couple of months back), which is still close enough for Mary Sue-ness; he's got pretty much every character except for Rei "Icey" Ayanami lusting after him at one point or another (and, had it been plausible, I'm sure she *would* have been), and he does the Honorable Thing in every case except for Asuka, something I'm not sure that a 14-year-old boy would have the strength of character for (I sure as hell didn't, and I *know* I wouldn't have turned down a chance at someone like Ritsuko or Misato at that age, and I'm a pretty old-fashioned guy in that particular respect), but his characterization is consistent and it's believable; he's a crack shot with a pistol and has a *lot* of world experience, but given his mother, I can believe it; and he's better at piloting an Eva than anyone in the original series. Here's the thing: DJ works, for me, because he's a Hero. He's someone who comes along in stories every so often, and, because he's unique, his existence has meaning. There's only one Superman in the DC universe. There's only one Arthur Pendragon. There's only one DJ Croft. Etc.

>Personally I have never made any bones about it - I write to have fun,
>and some of it is unabashed pure male ego power trip fantasy material.

I've heard it said by many fan writers than all fan fiction is wish fulfillment, and I'm willing to extend that idea to *all* fiction. I'm writing the stories I'm writing because they're the kind of stories I want to read. I'm writing about the kind of characters I'm writing about because they're the kind of characters I want to read about. And I honestly expect that that's what every other writer is doing.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>he's got pretty much every character except for Rei "Icey"
>Ayanami lusting after him at one point or another (and, had it been
>plausible, I'm sure she *would* have been)

This is wrong in two different ways:
- Jon doesn't; and
- Rei most certainly does, in her own way. :)

>and he's better at piloting an Eva than
>anyone in the original series.

Well... he's better at piloting that EVA than anyone in the original series. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>This is wrong in two different ways:
> - Jon doesn't; and

Okay. Meant to say all *female* characters. Major ones, anyway, that spend more than, say, five minutes.

> - Rei most certainly does, in her own way. :)

Well, it's a credit to your restraint (such as it is ~_^) that her characterization means that we don't really see this. And that DJ wouldn't take advantage of it if we did.

>Well... he's better at piloting that EVA than anyone
>in the original series. :)

Point. Which has to do with the cosmology of the EVAs in NXE vs. the EVA cosmology in NGE. (That reminds me... still haven't picked up the fourth NGE DVD... gotta rectify that soon.)

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Well... he's better at piloting that EVA than anyone
>in the original series. :)

For anyone who may have forgotten (from NXE 3:6)...

------ ---- --

DJ, on the other hand, came in for a nasty shock in -his- test run with Unit 03: he had completely flatscaled. The unit had evinced no reaction whatsoever to his presence, nor he to its. A perfectly imperfect sync ratio: zero point zero zero to one.

DJ was appalled. Maya was shocked. Truss was extremely puzzled. They mulled it over; they discussed it with SHODAN; they solicited speculation from the Magi; they called Ritsuko via an extremely flangy encrypted voice channel to get her opinion.

They came up with three theories:
1) DJ's experiences aboard EVA-01 during his last operation had destroyed his talent;
2) DJ had a very specialized talent that only worked with the unique and quirky early models, leaving him unable to use a production model unit; or
3) Sunspots.

------ ---- --

I'll leave it to the reader to guess which theory was correct, but here's a hint: it wasn't #3. ;)

--truss.

I think the topic of whether or not DJ is SI has been more than adequately done to death in the Shamrock House meta-meta-short.
<p>
or did I miss something?
<p>
As far as Rei/ DJ-- well, she's a celestial. It's perfectly appropriate for her to have passions and feelings for DJ that, while they may have a sexual expression (she DOES make the offer to DJ at one point, which he declines because of Asuka), are not necessarily indicative of Rei actually having *romantic* feelings for him. The difference between eros and agape, for those of a classical bent.
<p>
Of course, Gryph et al. are welcome to tell me to stick it. I did briefly entertain thoughts of becoming an English major and it still tells on me despite two years as a sysadmin. ;)

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Silicon Valley, CA

>As far as Rei/ DJ-- well, she's a celestial. It's perfectly
>appropriate for her to have passions and feelings for DJ that, while
>they may have a sexual expression (she DOES make the offer to DJ at
>one point, which he declines because of Asuka), are not necessarily
>indicative of Rei actually having *romantic* feelings for him. The
>difference between eros and agape, for those of a classical bent.

It's a little bit of both; she -is- a celestial, and so her feelings and responses to things are somewhat alien, but at the same time, thanks to her experiences of recent years, she is and will always be somewhat more human than most of her fellows. -And- she's a Guardian, which means that by nature she tends to form few but very deep, intense attachments. So what's between them operates on levels that, though I'm aware of them, I can't articulate, at least not half an hour after rolling out of bed. I could more easily illustrate it with a vignette, but that will have to wait until after I've dealt with the actual series resolution.

That relationship is one of the things I've thought hardest about and enjoyed most about working on NXE, because it took on a life of its own very early on and has more or less directed itself ever since, which has left me with little planning and much analysis to do. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Not sunspots?
Darn - that was my favorite theory.

Maybe it was actually something to do with cellphones.
Considering what they do to my walkman I could see them affecting piloting ability.
Given ten minutes, a bar of chocolate and the alternative of AMR I could probably come up with some technobabble...

>>he's got pretty much every character except for Rei "Icey"
>>Ayanami lusting after him at one point or another (and, had it been
>>plausible, I'm sure she *would* have been)
>
>This is wrong in two different ways:
> - Jon doesn't; and
> - Rei most certainly does, in her own way. :)

Yay?

>Well... he's better at piloting that EVA than anyone
>in the original series. :)

Oh. That is so much better....

>No, DJ is most definitely *not* SI. He is an archetypical
>(replace "Mary Sue" with your favorite masculinization, such as "Gary
>Stu" or "Wesley Crusher"), which, in and of itself, is not a bad

A little SAT fun for everyone!

"Wesley Crusher is to D.J. Croft what _______ is to _______."

a) Michael Knight is to The Bandit
b) Jake Cutter from 'Tales of the Golden Monkey' is to Ash
c) Jason from 'Ice Pirates' is to Han Solo
d) The kid in 'Pod People' is to Elliot from 'E.T.'

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>A little SAT fun for everyone!
>
>"Wesley Crusher is to D.J. Croft what _______ is to _______."

Hmmm... I think I personally will have to go with:

>c) Jason from 'Ice Pirates' is to Han Solo

(I firmly believe that about three months of my six years of therapy stem from watching "Ice Pirates" when I was about nine years old. Not as traumatic as seeing "Time Bandits" at six and some-odd change (not quite sure), but up there.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>(I firmly believe that about three months of my six years of therapy
>stem from watching "Ice Pirates" when I was about nine years old. Not
>as traumatic as seeing "Time Bandits" at six and some-odd change (not
>quite sure), but up there.

'Time Bandits' was probably better for you in the long run, but I'm a Gilliam fan, so I'm biased. :)

--watches 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' just for fun on boring nights
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-01 AT 01:26 AM (EST)

>'Time Bandits' was probably better for you in the long run, but I'm a
>Gilliam fan, so I'm biased. :)

Terry Gilliam is my favorite film director of all time. But the effects of "Time Bandits" on a six-year-old mind is something that I'd rather not have to contemplate ever again.

-- Sean --

(who once went from falling down drunk to stone cold sober just by watching "Brazil" )

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>plausible, I'm sure she *would* have been), and he does the Honorable
>Thing in every case except for Asuka, something I'm not sure that a
>14-year-old boy would have the strength of character for (I sure as
>hell didn't, and I *know* I wouldn't have turned down a chance at

Just my two cents here - when I was 14, I did do the Honorable Thing, and turn down the chances I got. Then again, I am a decidedly odd person. Even when I understand the reasons why people do things, I still have trouble accepting that people can honestly be that mindlessly stupid in some cases.

Like gambling. I work in a casino, counting the money the tourists spend. The Elite Signature Club cardholder have to spend three time what my m9other makes in a year, over the course of a single month. I understand, logically, that they think they have the Luck of Eris on their side and that they can beat the odds to win... But I don't get how they can actually believe it. The odds are obscenely against them - if they weren't, casinos couldn't operate.

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity (or an individual's ability to twist facts to accomodate their preconceptions).

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'

>Never underestimate the power of human stupidity (or an individual's
>ability to twist facts to accomodate their preconceptions).

Right, of course. Hanlon's Razor, IIRC the name correctly. Whee!

-Khirsah the Deranged
"This Space For Rent."

LAST EDITED ON May-27-01 AT 02:14 PM (EDT)

(My original post appears in italics.)

I could be wrong, but it seems that the fanfiction community has
received Neon Exodus Evangelion with mixed emotions. Many hate it.

>No, really? God forbid people have different opinions about something.

We are the music-makers and we are the dreamers of dreams. Sarcasm does not become us. Civility is paramount.

>Why, exactly? Fanfiction is hardly the pinnacle of literature. Not
>that no one should do it, there are great fanfics out there (even I
>wrote a one once) but if you put your work out on the web, you have to
>be prepared for someone to have a negative reaction about it. When you
>write a fanfic, you are creating your own version of characters and
>situations created by someone else. If someone disagrees with your
>portrayal, they will probably not like your story. If Ben doesn't want
>this, he should write original instead of fan fiction.

At no point did I say that fanfiction was somehow above criticism. Likewise original work is not above criticism. However, in fan-written fiction, perhaps moreso than in mainstream writing, the reader and the author make a sort of deal. The author writes in a universe beloved by both him and the reader, and the reader agrees to take a risk --- a risk that he may disagree with the author's use of their shared universe. This is the game of fanfiction. It's one thing to question form, it's quite another to tell a fanfiction author that what they're doing is bad and childish and stupid. If you don't like the game, then why are you playing?

In NXE, the authorial team makes profound changes to the concept of Evangelion. The original Neon Genesis Evangelion series is not, I argue, about giant robots and saving the earth. It's an allegorical tale about overcoming self-doubt and depression, and an adolescent coming-of-age story. The robots and battles are all sugar-coating, executed brilliantly in fine Gainax style. The movies are the studio's response to the failure of audiences to realize that Eva is not about literal giant robots --- and probably they are also to make a fast buck.

NXE, on the other hand, has coming-of-age and psychological overtones, but it actually is about literal giant robots and angels and demons, and it takes the moody angst of Eva and turns it on its head, creating a John Woo-meets-Pre-Titanic-James-Cameron cinematic story of good versus evil with lots of explosions. It's a huge action movie with heart and brains.

I question the insight of people who can't or won't see the differences between these two texts. I don't read fanfiction to see texual versions of my favorite anime. I read it to see new ways of thinking about my beloved characters and settings.

DJ Croft as self-insertion character
>No, not really. It's a staple of self insertion for a character to be
>incredibly cool and get the anime lady(ies) of his choice to fall in
>love with him. Take a look at the open self-insertion stories on this
>website. All of the SIs are incredibly cool and have the anime
>lady(ies) of their choice fall in love with them. Now take a look at
>DJ. He is incredibly cool, yadda yadda yadda.

This is a hard point for me to argue, as you have made up your mind and I have made up mine. Continuing. . .

The Eyrie
writing team has never shied away from writing stories with their
alter egos as main characters -- indeed, it's some of their best work.
NXE, however, is not one of these stories.
>That's much less significant when you realize what anime they are
>writing for. Only 14 year olds can pilot EVAs. I'm not entirely sure
>how old the authors are, but I'm betting they're not 14. What are they
>going to do, use age regression?

Well, given that Gryphon and Co. tend to wind up immortal or highly-modified (or both) in their forays into alternate universes, I'd say that if they wanted to be in NXE, they'd be there. The other changes (perhaps the most profound of which, perhaps, was the portrayal of the the "angels" of Eva as actual heavenly beings) that the Eyrie folks made to the universe are much more significant than the simple age-limit for Eva pilots. They could've pushed the Second Impact back or moved the story from 2015 to 2025 with no difficulty.

DJ Croft
>I'll give you that one. He was much more bearable in series two.
>
>...series three, however, is another matter entirely.

It's just possible that DJ Croft is too good. Then again, when did any of us not get sick of Shinji's whining and moaning in the original Eva series? The moody, depressive Eva needed its profoundly weak and hesitant character. I acknowleged that and enjoyed it. So also does the mythic, action-movie style NXE require and equally over-the-top hero.

And I have to ask --- if you dislike this series so much, why keep reading through season three? I've read fanfiction that really hacked me off; I was seriously angry. So I ended my game with the author and never read their work again.

And if he's a bit larger-than-life, so what? We love
a good hero.
>You love a good hero. Some of us prefer someone with real, sympathetic
>problems. Some of us also prefer a hero who is at least slightly
>believable and who doesn't have to overshadow everyone, constantly, in
>order to prove how cool he is.

My suggestion is to go watch Escaflowne, or Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou, or read somebody else's fanfiction. Because DJ Croft is perfect compensation for the weak-kneed Shinji Ikari of the canon series; Shinji may be the protagonist, but he is not a hero.

The breadth of knowledge, depth of character, and seamless continuity
that NXE has exemplified so far set it far ahead of the bulk of
fanfiction today.
>Oh, that's saying a lot. How much fanfiction have you read? In one of
>my darker hours, I once tried to go through the entire
>rec.arts.anime.creative. The resulting psychological scarring probably
>explains why I hate everyone now. Probably.

I don't quite understand --- does that reflect well or poorly on the majority of fanfaction? I've read a fair amount of fanfiction -- not a lot, but some. I quit reading when I find spelling or grammatical errors that can't be ascribed to typos. I quit reading, generally, when it's shameless author-insertion. I don't read fanfiction of anime that I don't like, and there's plenty animation nowadays that I don't like.

So no, I don't read a lot of fanfiction. Only the good stuff, and it has to be good right away.

>Anyone can have fans. Just look at David Gonterman. The fact that NXE
>is actually well-written and coherent and STILL has a large number of
>detractors should tell you something.

It's provocative and original --- in terms of flavor and theme, it really doesn't resemble Eva at all. I can easily see why that would bother fans of Eva. I'm not saying I don't understand what's not to like, I'm saying that those that don't like it (or rather, don't accept it on its own terms) are crazy. I've read other Eva fanfiction, and it's generally full of handwringing and continuous attempts to be Hideaki Anno. Most fanfiction authors aren't Anno, and they shouldn't try to be. NXE has no such pretensions.

The original characters are just that, original,
and just as flawed and interesting as the canon cast.
>And, if you want the truth, I actually did think some of the plot was
>interesting, in a goofy sort of way. The characterization was the
>thing that really made me want to kill--DJ is put on a pedestal and
>allowed to do everything, any characters the author doesn't like are
>demonized or just plain written out, and there is WAY, WAY, WAY too
>much WAFF.

I am unfamiliar with the term "WAFF." Enlighten me, won't you please?

I return to my original argument regarding DJ: The nature of NXE requires a stupendous badass, and DJ is that stupendous badass.

Regarding the other characters, I'm going to disagree with you yet again. Nearly all of them (even Kaji!) come 'round in the end. I have a couple of friends who are like DJ Croft in many ways -- seemingly good at everything, personable, flirty, and they always seem to win. Not unlike DJ, they are also unflaggingly loyal to those they consider friends. I had to realize that the reason I was disliking them was the fact that they were so good, and nothing else. Being really cool, good at lots of stuff, and a Nice Person to boot is not a crime. Such people actually exist.

>I think I actually had to skip some of the scenes with DJ
>and Asuka because they were just too vomit-inducingly sweet. Here's a
>little bit of constructive criticism for you: there's a difference
>between the touching interaction of two people who love each other and
>a soul-sickening, saccharine hippie love fest that goes for several
>pages and is repeated every chapter.

I think you're more sensitive to this than I am, but I understand the sentiment. Poorly-done romance hacks me off, and it's yet another thing that will make me immediately quit reading a fanfiction.

I can see why you'd characterize NXE's romantic themes as sappy, but I didn't get that vibe.

The writing is
crisp, the liberal pop culture references are smart,
>Are you talking about the references to Marathon, Sailor Moon, and
>anything else you can think of? Or did SEELE sent a cute little email
>to NERV to inform them that "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US. YOU HAVE
>NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME." and I just didn't notice?

Marathon, Sailor Moon, Apollo 13, John Woo, numerous video games --- this fanfiction talks to me and my life.

The only thing I didn't like, as an enthusiast, was DJ's motorcycle. I would've done that differently. But I can live with that.

>1)Contradict much? "DAMN THE FANBOYS! I AM A FANBOY!"

Right after posting this, I realized my contradiction. To my credit, though, I didn't use all capital letters.

So, allow me to revise my self-description to say "I'm an avid Eyrie reader," and restate my sweeping declaration: "Damn the fanboys," with the postscript "... because they just don't get it."

>2)It's a good thing you didn't say "Damn the fangirls!" because then
>I'd have to really hurt you.

"Damn the otaku," then. Although you'll excuse me if I find your random threat slightly annoying, and a bit puzzling.

>3)You've got to represent...what, exactly? Eyrie fanboys? Try to be
>clear.

I'm representin' the I-Ree POSSE, y'all. Word to your mother. Peace out.

-S.
----------------------------------------
The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share
with someone else when you're uncool.
Lester Bangs, "Almost Famous"
----------------------------------------

WAFF = Warm and Fuzzy Feeling

If someone thinks that DJ is over the top, I suggest they look at some of the stories Skysaber's posted at fanfiction.net. He DOES write self-inertions that play with a lot of power. Fair enough, not everyone likes that sort of story. So perhaps they could... oh, I dunno... not read them?

And just because someone's pretty good doesn't absolve them of making mistakes... DJ's made at least two whopping great mistakes that could have led to tragic consequences IMHO. I'm not going to say what because
a) it's just my opinion and
b) it's irrelvant.

drakensisthered
"if you approach I'll use this shotgun"
"if I approach your shotgun won't work"
"that's why I'll use it!"
- conversation at a BB event

>We are the music-makers and we are the dreamers of dreams. Sarcasm
>does not become us. Civility is paramount.

But I've been on my best behavior!

>At no point did I say that fanfiction was somehow above criticism.
>Likewise original work is not above criticism. However, in
>fan-written fiction, perhaps moreso than in mainstream writing, the
>reader and the author make a sort of deal. The author writes in a
>universe beloved by both him and the reader, and the reader agrees to
>take a risk --- a risk that he may disagree with the author's use of
>their shared universe. This is the game of fanfiction. It's one
>thing to question form, it's quite another to tell a fanfiction author
>that what they're doing is bad and childish and stupid. If you don't
>like the game, then why are you playing?

Because it almost always provokes a reaction in me. I crave mental stimulation. And I'm all in favor of any fanfiction, especially when it leads to things like this.

>In NXE, the authorial team makes profound changes to the concept of
>Evangelion. The original Neon Genesis Evangelion series is not, I
>argue, about giant robots and saving the earth. It's an allegorical
>tale about overcoming self-doubt and depression, and an adolescent
>coming-of-age story. The robots and battles are all sugar-coating,
>executed brilliantly in fine Gainax style. The movies are the
>studio's response to the failure of audiences to realize that Eva is
>not about literal giant robots --- and probably they are also to make
>a fast buck.

I haven't seen the movies yet. However, from what I hear, they are very vicious and could very well be a vengeful striking out against the fans who don't get it. But I think the robots were a bit more than sugar coating. The battles had a great deal of meaning in the context of the storyline--they weren't just pretty action sequences, they had profound (usually traumatic) effects on the characters. They had their symbolism, just like everything else. I can't imagine Eva without the giant robots. Without giant robot battles, how would they get everyone to go insane? Er. You know what I mean.

>NXE, on the other hand, has coming-of-age and psychological overtones,
>but it actually is about literal giant robots and angels and demons,
>and it takes the moody angst of Eva and turns it on its head, creating
>a John Woo-meets-Pre-Titanic-James-Cameron cinematic story of good
>versus evil with lots of explosions. It's a huge action movie with
>heart and brains.
>
>I question the insight of people who can't or won't see the
>differences between these two texts. I don't read fanfiction to see
>texual versions of my favorite anime. I read it to see new ways of
>thinking about my beloved characters and settings.

Okay. But a John Woo version of Evangelion is maybe a bit more revolutionary of an interpretation of the dark, philosophical, and highly disturbing than I am willing to accept, at least in terms of serious fanfiction.

>Well, given that Gryphon and Co. tend to wind up immortal or
>highly-modified (or both) in their forays into alternate universes,
>I'd say that if they wanted to be in NXE, they'd be there. The
>other changes (perhaps the most profound of which, perhaps, was the
>portrayal of the the "angels" of Eva as actual heavenly beings) that
>the Eyrie folks made to the universe are much more significant than
>the simple age-limit for Eva pilots. They could've pushed the Second
>Impact back or moved the story from 2015 to 2025 with no difficulty.

Weren't the Angels already heavenly beings?

...

Ah, screw it. Let's get back to argueing NXE. For starters, I think bringing in the demons was the most drastic alteration, followed by all the crossovers. The only one that really bothered me (aside from the obvious and already much argued) was the moving of Nerv to Worcester. Why? It served no apparent purpose to the plot. Was it because the authors write better with a familiar setting? Some plot subtlety that came out with the move to England? Actually, I'm pretty sure it's been explained somewhere, only I can't remember where, or what the explanation was, and in any case i can't be going about ruining my reputation for stating the blindingly obvious.

>It's just possible that DJ Croft is too good. Then again, when
>did any of us not get sick of Shinji's whining and moaning in the
>original Eva series? The moody, depressive Eva needed its profoundly
>weak and hesitant character. I acknowleged that and enjoyed it. So
>also does the mythic, action-movie style NXE require and equally
>over-the-top hero.

NXE would not be NXE without DJ. Whether that would be a good thing or not will be argued across the Internet until the human race bombs itself out of existence. Even then, the Internet will be revived 2000 years later by an advanced alien civilization who will spend untold aeons debating whether or not Jon or Rei got the best lines. Digression, digression, I know. But can you guess which crappy movie I watched last week?
>
>And I have to ask --- if you dislike this series so much, why keep
>reading through season three? I've read fanfiction that really hacked
>me off; I was seriously angry. So I ended my game with the author and
>never read their work again.

I enjoyed reading it. To give a sense of perspective, I also enjoy reading literary train wrecks.

Now, I will give the good, or 'real' response, which for this one time only you can get without going through some insane song-and-dance with some special item on the final boss. I enjoyed reading NXE. But I couldn't take it seriously. The problem is, it's a serious fanfic.
>
>I don't quite understand --- does that reflect well or poorly on the
>majority of fanfaction? I've read a fair amount of fanfiction -- not
>a lot, but some. I quit reading when I find spelling or grammatical
>errors that can't be ascribed to typos. I quit reading, generally,
>when it's shameless author-insertion. I don't read fanfiction of
>anime that I don't like, and there's plenty animation nowadays that I
>don't like.

Most fanfiction is unbelievably bad. I read a few good ones scattered among the fantastically boring, the outright laughable, and the rare, truly unreadable peice. I can't stand to not complete something, so I will usually read all the way through something even if I hate it, so long as there is even the slightest fragment of something which may conceivably turn out be interesting. I have actually been pleasantly surprised by the ending of one of these. But only once.

>It's provocative and original --- in terms of flavor and theme, it
>really doesn't resemble Eva at all. I can easily see why that would
>bother fans of Eva. I'm not saying I don't understand what's not to
>like, I'm saying that those that don't like it (or rather, don't
>accept it on its own terms) are crazy. I've read other Eva
>fanfiction, and it's generally full of handwringing and continuous
>attempts to be Hideaki Anno. Most fanfiction authors aren't Anno, and
>they shouldn't try to be. NXE has no such pretensions.

It is in a class of its own, I'll say that. I haven't read much Eva fiction, as it only got big after I'd stopped my fanfic obsession. Most of what I've read are MSTed self insertions. I read the much-loved Eva-R. All the way through. I figured everyone has to be plugging it for some reason. I still don't know what that reason is.

>I am unfamiliar with the term "WAFF." Enlighten me, won't you please?

Well, I would. But someone beat me to it.

I have a couple of friends who are like DJ Croft in many ways --
>seemingly good at everything, personable, flirty, and they always seem
>to win. Not unlike DJ, they are also unflaggingly loyal to those they
>consider friends. I had to realize that the reason I was disliking
>them was the fact that they were so good, and nothing else.
>Being really cool, good at lots of stuff, and a Nice Person to boot is
>not a crime. Such people actually exist.

Hm. Well, I'll have to take your word for that. But if they really are like DJ, then I probably wouldn't be able to stand them. I can't take pushy people.

>I can see why you'd characterize NXE's romantic themes as sappy, but I
>didn't get that vibe.

I'm very sensitive to bad romance. I don't know why.

>Marathon, Sailor Moon, Apollo 13, John Woo, numerous video games ---
>this fanfiction talks to me and my life.

I like Marathon. I used to like Sailor Moon. The others passed me right by--except for Tomb Raider, which I never liked.

>>1)Contradict much? "DAMN THE FANBOYS! I AM A FANBOY!"
>
>Right after posting this, I realized my contradiction. To my credit,
>though, I didn't use all capital letters.

One of my annoying habits. I have been trying to cut down.

>"Damn the otaku," then. Although you'll excuse me if I find your
>random threat slightly annoying, and a bit puzzling.

Well, you see, it's part of my image. I bitch at someone for saying something stupid, then I 'level the playing field,' so to speak, by saying something stupid myself. Except I'm starting to wonder if that is really an effective posting style. I'm thinking about just cutting back to posting meandering narratives and links to insane web sites. Like this link, which goes to Star Wars reenactments with Lego.

>I'm representin' the I-Ree POSSE, y'all. Word to your mother. Peace
>out.

werd.

>the obvious and already much argued) was the moving of Nerv to
>Worcester. Why? It served no apparent purpose to the plot. Was it
>because the authors write better with a familiar setting? Some plot
>subtlety that came out with the move to England? Actually, I'm pretty

Um, Worcester, MA. Not Worcester in England. Worcester is pronounced "Woo-stah," and it's a little over an hour from Boston, depending on who's driving.

As for why it's in Worcester? It's an Eyrie fic. Of course it's in Worcester. In the Eyrieverse, all roads lead to Worcester.

-- Sean --
...Eyrieverse? did I just invent a term?
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Yeah, well.. As a raving Eyrie fanboy, I'd just like to point out that I've seen all of maybe two EVA episodes, and only because I read NXE first.. I really like reading about a hero who can do cool stuff because his universe is _right_ and good and fair, as opposed to based on the loaded dice that ours is.

E.O. Stinson yostinso@wpi.edu
AIM: Eostinso ICQ: 3513296
Admin: http://www.wedgerats.net
Yostinso <-- crazy fanboy

>I could be wrong, but it seems that the fanfiction community has
>received Neon Exodus Evangelion with mixed emotions. Many hate it.

And isn't that some kind of rediculous? I mean, there's tons of fanfiction out there. You could go out there and read every bit of fanfiction that exists and never have time to re-read the good ones, much less ones you disliked.

So, aside from fanfiction that squicks you (oscar), what use is it in hating a particular piece of fanfiction? There's better things to do with my life, at least.

That said, I really like NXE, and the character of DJ Croft. Sure, at times he's better than you or me - but given the times he's living in they don't exactly have a great booming margin of error to operate in. He's needed. I just hope he isn't dead.

-john, humorless toad
The difference between a violin and a viola is that a viola burns longer.
-Victor Borge

(just tossing my $0.02 in here, really... feel free to ignore)

I dunno about the rest of you, but I *despise* NGE. The show, IMO, sucks. Why?

It's not right.

Oh, I know, I know -- the world is not a fair place, nor a nice one, and it most certainly sucks. But to glorify that (which is what, to me, NGE did)...

Which, I suppose, is why I like NXE so damn much. I don't know Gryph personally, but from the impressions I've gotten, I think I can count on him not to disappoint me when it comes to doing the story right.

And to make it right, dammit, the good guys need to win! If they die in the attempt, so be it, but at least they'll have tried.

Whereas, in NGE, the biggest impression I got was that they had all given up.

(don't expect me to make too much sense about the show; I was pretty pissed at it by, oh, hell, ep. 10 or 12, I think, and only stuck through it because I couldn't believe it was really heading the direction it did. Jesus, what a let-down.)

Anyway.

--sofaspud
--

LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-01 AT 10:02 PM (EDT)

I'd have to agree, mostly. I can't go so far as to say I really dislike EVA... I truely enjoyed it up until Touji got crunched. Then it just started going downhill. Creating deep and likeable (sometimes) characters, and then spending a good portion of the series torturing them and then coming to a disastorous ending... it's just not right. People can say that it was 'philosophically deep', but it really wasn't. All the TV ending had to say was, essentially "It's okay to feel lonely and apart from others, because everyone does." It only seemed deep because it was so cryptic and vague.

The other thing that annoys me is that there's too many people who just think that EVA is the be all and end all of anime, despite so many glaring flaws in the series. If it wasn't so overrated, I wouldn't have quite so big a problem with it.

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least four EVA fanfic series' that would've made a better anime series than EVA. And NXE is certainly one of them.

So, three cheers for Eyrie, and a hearty "F*** you!" for Anno. ^_^

>People can say that it was 'philosophically deep', but it
>really wasn't. All the TV ending had to say was, essentially "It's
>okay to feel lonely and apart from others, because everyone does." It
>only seemed deep because it was so cryptic and vague.

Y'know, that's about the most succinct summary of (one of the things) what was wrong with Neon Genesis Evangelion that I've seen. Thanks.

> So, three cheers for Eyrie, and a hearty "F*** you!" for Anno. ^_^

I liked the little column he wrote for the first compilation of Sadamoto's EVA magna in which he basically said, "Thanks for all your cards and letters, I'm feeling much better now." It made me understand him (if not his work) a little better, and sympathize a bit more with him. I'm still irritated at him for thrusting his neuroses on me disguised as a spiffy giant robot show, but I don't take it personally any more. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>People can say that it was 'philosophically deep', but it
>>really wasn't. All the TV ending had to say was, essentially "It's
>>okay to feel lonely and apart from others, because everyone does." It
>>only seemed deep because it was so cryptic and vague.
>
>Y'know, that's about the most succinct summary of (one of the things)
>what was wrong with Neon Genesis Evangelion that I've seen.
>Thanks.

I don't worship NGE as being The Greatest Anime of All Time. It's good -- damn good -- and overall its pluses far outweigh the negative.

On a more personal level, I tend to like a lot of the darker ideas, as a lot of times they seem more honest than bright and happy stuff; I think *that* has more to do with studio and network execs and print editors and the like than writers. One of my favorite hours of television of all time, Buffy the Vampire Slayer's "The Body", and it's not at all uplifting or bright by any stretch of the imagination, but for people who, like me, have lost a parent (and particularly at a time when there is absolutely no way to see it coming -- whether it's like how Buffy's mom died, or my own mother's violent death), it's an intensely brilliant thing to watch, because you know the truth of what's happening there. Or James O'Barr's The Crow (forget the movie, worship the comic). Also why "Heartbreak", although it's far from perfect from a purely technical standpoint, is one of my favorite UF stories, because you can read between the lines and tell it's coming from a very real place.

It's not that hope isn't a valid theme. My favorite traditional superhero is the Flash, partly because I find his powers far more interesting to explore on an intellectual level, partly because I just love speed and motion, and partly because of the honesty and personal veracity of Mark Waid's writing, which was always hopeful and romantic (Terminal Velocity is one of the best things I've ever read in a canonical story arc).

Ultimately, reading about the Bad Stuff in people's lives, and their neuroses, can help, for the same reason the blues is such a great musical genre: 'cause no matter how far you sink emotionally, someone out there's been there, and you're not alone when you listen to or play the blues.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>movie, worship the comic). Also why "Heartbreak", although it's far
>from perfect from a purely technical standpoint,

That's putting it mildly... It stinks.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-01 AT
>10:02 PM (EDT)

> Off the top of my head, I can think of at least four EVA fanfic
>series' that would've made a better anime series than EVA. And NXE is
>certainly one of them.
>
> So, three cheers for Eyrie, and a hearty "F*** you!" for Anno. ^_^

I'm kinda new but I think I'd hafta agree with this. NGE wasn't as good as it should've been, and yes, NXE is one of those fanfics that we wish were in place of the original series! It's just so well-written, unlike the cryptic-ness of the original NGE series. But the stuff shown on the NGE series wasn't half bad, some of it was downright good, while some were downright ugly.

On another note, let's not diss Anno... he had creative vision! Although you have to admit he is kinda whack for some of the later episodes... I mean c'mon! Some of that stuff was just god-awful in more ways than one!

And as for the anti-NXE contingent looming around mentioned way earlier? I'd have to say bring them on! They claim NXE to be nothing more than an SI 'fic when it really isn't one. I think they should have more faith in what others say, as well as take our word for it when we say NXE is great! These guys are just probably jealous the way NXE turned out great!

-Xavier-
-CEO, Tritium-Elan Consortium-
-^_^-

> And as for the anti-NXE contingent looming around mentioned way
>earlier? I'd have to say bring them on! They claim NXE to be nothing
>more than an SI 'fic when it really isn't one.

But it is an SI fic. Truss is in it.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>> And as for the anti-NXE contingent looming around mentioned way
>>earlier? I'd have to say bring them on! They claim NXE to be nothing
>>more than an SI 'fic when it really isn't one.
>
>But it is an SI fic. Truss is in it.

Ah, but he didn't insert himself! :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>> And as for the anti-NXE contingent looming around mentioned way
>>>earlier? I'd have to say bring them on! They claim NXE to be nothing
>>>more than an SI 'fic when it really isn't one.
>>
>>But it is an SI fic. Truss is in it.
>
>Ah, but he didn't insert himself! :)
>
>--G.

Oh, picky, picky ;P.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Oh, picky, picky ;P.

Well, it is a valid point - Truss was written into the story by Gryph well before Truss became involved as an author. And I don't think Truss ever writes himself.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>Oh, picky, picky ;P.
>
>Well, it is a valid point - Truss was written into the story by Gryph
>well before Truss became involved as an author.

Which is why I'm winking. (My father does that to me all the time... point out a little detail that blows his whole point apart, and he'll just tell you you're being picky. Not that it's ever anything he takes seriously.)

> And I don't think
>Truss ever writes himself.

My first thought on reading this was, "How could you NOT write yourself?", but then I remembered that the one time I was a fictional character (back in the HLFIC-L war of the Spring of 1996), other people wrote me as well as, if not better than, I wrote myself. Of course, I was a rather green writer at the time, which had a lot to do with it.

Still and all, having one of the authors -- if not the main credited one -- in the series' cast gives fuel to the SI argument. I don't agree with it; as I've said, Croft isn't an SI character, he's a Mary Sue. And I have to confess that, given Eyrie's history, when I first started reading NXE, for about halfway through the first story I was waiting for something that would show that Croft was a 14-year-old version of Gryphon. (Obviously, he's not, as he doesn't have any of the hallmarks of an SI Gryph -- such as being named "Gryph", for one. I mean, it's not like anyone at EPU shies from doing blatant SI.)

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>>And I don't think Truss ever writes himself.
>
>My first thought on reading this was, "How could you NOT write
>yourself?", but then I remembered that the one time I was a fictional
>character (back in the HLFIC-L war of the Spring of 1996), other
>people wrote me as well as, if not better than, I wrote myself. Of
>course, I was a rather green writer at the time, which had a lot to do
>with it.

I'm just not all that comfortable writing myself. (My stock explanation for this is "I don't have a good enough feel for the character," which is actually mostly true. :)) Not in this story, anyway.

My UF avatar is (will be, once Twilight is done and more FI stuff can actually get released) an exception, though, because, well, it's UF. Half of everyone I know is in it, so I don't feel so out of place. :)

About the only NXE-Truss stuff I've actually written has been some dialogue (within scenes that Gryph has already outlined or written). I still want him to sound like me. So, yeah... NXE-Truss's half of exchanges like the "one less Wal-Mart" one with Maya and the "Define OK" one with Asuka in 2:3 are largely my fault. :)

--truss.
"That's new." "Mm."

>I'm just not all that comfortable writing myself. (My stock
>explanation for this is "I don't have a good enough feel for the
>character," which is actually mostly true. :)) Not in this story,
>anyway.
>
>My UF avatar is (will be, once Twilight is done and more FI stuff can
>actually get released) an exception, though, because, well, it's UF.
>Half of everyone I know is in it, so I don't feel so out of place. :)
>
>About the only NXE-Truss stuff I've actually written has been some
>dialogue (within scenes that Gryph has already outlined or written).
>I still want him to sound like me. So, yeah... NXE-Truss's
>half of exchanges like the "one less Wal-Mart" one with Maya and the
>"Define OK" one with Asuka in 2:3 are largely my fault. :)
>
>--truss.
>"That's new." "Mm."

See? Command suports my argument! yay! no just joshin...

Anyways, when you really look at it from all the different angles you can,
you'd see that NXE isn't really an SI fic. It only BECOMES an SI fic in the mind of someone who isn't willing to look at it from different points
of view available to said person.

Like an abstract painting of sorts, it can look like something else to
someone, say... a rat? While it may look like more of a cheetah to someone.
Determining whether something is SI or not is pretty much the same process,
although a bit more complicated as we cannot claim to be literary masters
whose tastes far exceed those of mortal men. Nor can we get them to do things
like comment about his or her work.

It's very hard indeed, but reading it over, you'll see that the inserted characters are not replicas of their authors. They don't look as dashing or as handsome as they're supposed to be, nor are they as knowledgable or as emotionally perfect as we'd want them to be. They have what we call quirks or flaws which differentiate them vastly from the involved authors, and which also prevents them from falling categorically into the SI category.

-Xavier-
-CEO, Tritium-Elan Consortium-
-^_^-

> So, three cheers for Eyrie, and a hearty "F*** you!" for Anno. ^_^

And Anno-sama gave you a "Fuck you!" too. It's called End of Evangelion >:PPP

After reading through all three arcs, I enjoyed it overall. My issue isn't
with DJ Croft, but rather how the series style wise gradual to UF rather than
Evangelion. This is more notable in the third arc, when the character and
plot developement in the previous storylines plays second fiddle to In Nomine refs. The mood shifts are also both cool and distracting, perhaps a result of
all the co-authors in the following chapters.

I don't know, DJ himself doesn't bug me as much as other original fic characters, and I've seen a *lot*. As for the great debate of "Is Mary Sue"...
keep in mind that most Main Characters in actual works share some of the
similar aspects of a Mary Sue (See also Shinji, Kermit the Frog, Ash/Satoshi from Pokemon, etc.), which equal capacities of Good, Bad, or Other. Just a note not to right something off with "IT'S GOT A MARY SUE! :O"

That's my two bits for now.

Timothy McLees
Shinji's Twin Cousin from the Square State.

PS to Ben & Co.: Did you receive my "Jon/Angels" pic alright? Or did it get
lost in the server crash?

>As for the great debate of "Is Mary
>Sue"...
>keep in mind that most Main Characters in actual works share some of
>the
>similar aspects of a Mary Sue (See also Shinji, Kermit the Frog,
>Ash/Satoshi from Pokemon, etc.), which equal capacities of Good, Bad,
>or Other. Just a note not to right something off with "IT'S GOT A MARY
>SUE! :O"

Huh? Ikari Shinji a Mary Sue? No offense, but are you on crack?

A Mary Sue is a character -- not necessarily a fanfic character, but the phenomenon shows up more often in fanfic than original fic by FAR -- who can do just about anything, whom everybody likes, irrespective of whether or not any given character should like someone like that, who is an object of lust/love by anyone of the appropriate gender... a character who is, in a word, perfect. (I'm not counting flaws like "they care too much" or "can't sing worth a damn" unless being able to sing well is essential to the success of a critical mission or something like that.)

Ikari Shinji is just about as flawed and neurotic as you can get. To address your other examples... well, Kermit is hardly perfect (and for a leader type he gets ignored a lot), and I won't even dignify Satoshi/Ash with a response. Pokemon makes me want to projectile vomit.

Examples of a bad Mary Sue: Wesley Crusher. Marrissa from Stephen Ratliff's immense body of work. (If you've never read a Stephen Ratliff story... don't. Or just read a MiSTing.)

Examples of a Mary Sue that works: DJ Croft. Okay, not every reader likes him, and I still have issues with the idea of women in their mid-to-late twenties lusting after a 14-year-old (and even more with a 14-year-old having the strength of character not to take advantage of them), but he IS a likable character, and the stories he's in are pretty damn good. Or Tara O'Shea's Fionualla Rowan from her Gargoyles fanfics. Rowan is a Mary Sue (in this case, more because she's thinly disguised SI than many other Mary Sue-isms), but the stories are incredibly well-written, and I don't have any problem at all believing the character.

Mary Sues aren't inherently bad, but it takes a writer of great skill (like Gryph or LJC) to pull one off without making the reader/viewer hurl (like Gene Wesley Roddenberry's Wesley Crusher; yes, for those of you that don't know, Wesley was named after the Great Bird. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Wesley might have worked better had he a) not gotten the ship out of every tight spot in the first season, b) been the original female Leslie Crusher character, and c) not been played by Wil Wheaton).

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>A Mary Sue is a character -- not necessarily a fanfic character, but
>the phenomenon shows up more often in fanfic than original fic by FAR

<rant>

Well, that is fairly logical, since fanfics tend to be at least partially SI <yes, in a way, almost ALL fiction is partially SI, since bits of an author tend to show up in characters, but with fanfic it becomes more obvious since the author isn't the originator of the universe {or at the least, isn't the originator of the components the universe is made from} so the universe isn't crafted to fit in with the SI elements>. Basically, the dilemma becomes "Gee, I like this series/movie/etc and I'd love to write a story, maybe even show up myself. But universe X is populated by super heros <and they almost always are, at least if you extend the definition to include hyper trained individuals a la Batman as well as your deus ex super powered types> so if I add myself/invent a character, s/he has to be able to hang with them somehow." So, aspiring author has to fudge things, make their character naturally gifted in ways they've never known, or somehow explain the training that took place, but didn't take 30 years <ref: Neo in the Matrix downloading Jujitsu into his brain>. Beyond that, most fanfics have the author created characters <be they original or SI> as the main characters, hence the tendency to Mary Sue them. They are the center of the story, hence they have to save the day, or at least be crucial to saving the day, and get the girl <or boy>. Pull that one off without making a Mary Sue, I dare ya;)

</rant>

>Ikari Shinji is just about as flawed and neurotic as you can get. To
>address your other examples... well, Kermit is hardly perfect (and for
>a leader type he gets ignored a lot), and I won't even dignify
>Satoshi/Ash with a response. Pokemon makes me want to projectile
>vomit.
>

It isn't THAT bad. It's just geared towards kids, much more than most anime that is likely to be popular around here <imagine showing 8 year olds NGE, yahright>

>Mary Sues aren't inherently bad, but it takes a writer of great skill
>(like Gryph or LJC) to pull one off without making the reader/viewer
>hurl (like Gene Wesley Roddenberry's Wesley Crusher; yes, for those of
>you that don't know, Wesley was named after the Great Bird.
>Personally, I'm of the opinion that Wesley might have worked better
>had he a) not gotten the ship out of every tight spot in the first
>season, b) been the original female Leslie Crusher character, and c)
>not been played by Wil Wheaton).
>

I must concur, the character of Wesley Crusher should be exterminated with extreme prejudice. Who has the tac nukes?

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

>Well, that is fairly logical, since fanfics tend to be at least
>partially SI <yes, in a way, almost ALL fiction is partially SI, since
>bits of an author tend to show up in characters, but with fanfic it
>becomes more obvious since the author isn't the originator of the
>universe {or at the least, isn't the originator of the components the
>universe is made from} so the universe isn't crafted to fit in with
>the SI elements>.

There's a difference between using elements of yourself in a character so that you can write said character believably (or, in the case of a character invented by someone else, figuring out how to relate to that character's experience so that you can write said character believably), and SI, be it blatant (most of Eyrie) or thinly disguised (the Rowan character I mentioned earlier). Doing this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and, in fact, it's a necessity to writing believable fiction. Even blatant or barely-disguised SI is hardly an inherently bad thing, but the 'net has made it possible for lots of bad authors to post bad fiction starring themselves (or almost-themselves).

That being said, it's also true that all fiction is, in one way or another, some kind of wish fulfillment. In my case, it's that I write the kinds of stories that I want to read; and, yes, my characters often have an element of my own personality/character/mindset/viewpoint/etc. in them, just so I know how the hell to write them.

> Basically, the dilemma becomes "Gee, I like this
>series/movie/etc and I'd love to write a story, maybe even show up
>myself. <snip> Pull that one off without making a Mary Sue, I dare ya;)

Okay, here you're making several flawed assumptions. Now, what fanfic I have written and finished focuses on original characters in established universes, I've done my level best to not make those characters perfect. Powerful does not mean infallible; the Flash is mind-bogglingly powerful (and I maintain that there has not been a writer yet that has truly explored all the ramifications of his power, although some, like Mark Waid, have come close), but he's still a human being. He couldn't hold down a steady relationship to save his life until he met Linda Park; he traveled a long and difficult road to attain his power, and he still struggles with seeing himself as being in Barry Allen's shadow. Wally West is the most powerful speedster in the entire DC universe (and, I maintain, he'd be the absolutely most dangerous metahuman to go rogue in the entire DCU), and he's got even more experience in a costume than Superman or Batman, but he's still very human, very flawed, and very much an Everyman. I could say much the same about Spider-Man.

Secondly, the statement that the majority of anime fanfic introduces original characters as the primary protagonists is one that I don't agree with. A great deal of it does, but there's just as much that's only about the canon characters, and in most of the non-anime fanfic I've read (Highlander, for one) author-created characters are generally supporting cast to the canon characters. There are, of course, exceptions, but, in general, the best fanfic I've read deals only or primarily with canon characters; Sandra McDonald's Highlander stories, Merlin Missy's as-yet unfinished Consequences series of Gargoyles fanfics, Constance Cochran, Tara O'Shea... well, those are the ones that I come up with off the top of my head. The best fanfic, IMNSHO, should blend seamlessly with source canon; for instance, in the case of Sandra McDonald, I sometimes have to remind myself that a particular bit of plot or character development came from one of her stories and not from the series.

EPU is the grand exception to everything in the preceding paragraph. Universe-smashing, original characters front-and-center, etc., all of it done amazingly, brilliantly well.

>> Pokemon makes me want to projectile
>>vomit.
>>
>
>It isn't THAT bad. It's just geared towards kids, much more than most
>anime that is likely to be popular around here <imagine showing 8 year
>olds NGE, yahright>

Ummm... it is that bad. Younger viewer != stupid viewer. I'll show my kids Animaniacs, Histeria, and, when they're older, Robotech, thankyouverymuch.

>I must concur, the character of Wesley Crusher should be exterminated
>with extreme prejudice. Who has the tac nukes?

I'm remembering those bumperstickers that you saw everywhere at Trek cons back about ten years ago, that said something along the lines of "Fan of Turning Wesley Crusher into Space Dust."

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>>I must concur, the character of Wesley Crusher should be exterminated
>>with extreme prejudice. Who has the tac nukes?
>
>I'm remembering those bumperstickers that you saw everywhere at Trek
>cons back about ten years ago, that said something along the lines of
>"Fan of Turning Wesley Crusher into Space Dust."

Hmm... wonder if Wil Wheaton got one of those. IIRC, he didn't like the character he played either. :)

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

>Hmm... wonder if Wil Wheaton got one of those. IIRC, he didn't like
>the character he played either. :)

I didn't like Wil Wheaton playing the character. He wasn't all that annoying at first, but, as time progressed, he grew more and more grating. Then a friend of mine told me about getting hit on by Mr. Wheaton at a Trek con (she used to be something of a Wesley fan up until she went to get Wheaton's autograph and he told her how well-hung he was), and I just went to outright loathing.

>Patrick Chester

Okay, I'm plowing my way through Redneck: Wilderness again, and I'm wondering if you're the same Patrick Chester mentioned in passing somewhere in Part Three.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Huh? Ikari Shinji a Mary Sue? No offense, but are you on crack?
>

I've seen and read enough stuff that there's more to "Mary Sue" than just
boffo SI characters capable of everything and adored by all. They are,
in short, the outlet through which Stuff Happens within a series, thus
becoming the mouthpiece for the creators to express his story and ideas. Perhaps I should point to the viewpoint of Shinji as an outlet for Anno to use
EVA as his own personal couch trip, especially in the later stuff.

>
>Ikari Shinji is just about as flawed and neurotic as you can get. To
>address your other examples... well, Kermit is hardly perfect (and for
>a leader type he gets ignored a lot), and I won't even dignify
>Satoshi/Ash with a response. Pokemon makes me want to projectile
>vomit.

Shinji's a great character, one of my personal favs, I'm just noting that he does indeed fit the channeling aspect of SI's, such as the Couch Trip perspective. Likewise, Kermit, in all his awkward glory, also serves as
a mouthpiece that reacts and interprets whats around him, as well as the
driving force of the story. This is apparent particularly in Jim Henson's
earlier Muppet movies. Finally, kids show or not, Satoshi's
definately an outlet type character as well, he's even named after the series *creator*...

>
>Examples of a bad Mary Sue: Wesley Crusher. Marrissa from Stephen
>Ratliff's immense body of work. (If you've never read a Stephen
>Ratliff story... don't. Or just read a MiSTing.)

Hmmm... yes, I'm kinda familiar with Marrissa and MSTings... I kinda run
a site full of them. I've kinda been involved with MST and anime fandom
for at least five years. Some of the more "evil" authors (Thinker, the
afformentioned Ratliff) actually swing by to hang, they're pretty cool.

>
>Examples of a Mary Sue that works: DJ Croft. Okay, not every reader
>likes him, and I still have issues with the idea of women in their
>mid-to-late twenties lusting after a 14-year-old (and even more with a
>14-year-old having the strength of character not to take advantage of
>them), but he IS a likable character, and the stories he's in are
>pretty damn good.

That points kinda bugged me about him too, but he does indeed get better
in the second and third arcs. Like I said, my issue isn't with DJ, its
the more UF-ish elements in the later storylines.

>Mary Sues aren't inherently bad, but it takes a writer of great skill
>(like Gryph or LJC) to pull one off without making the reader/viewer
>hurl (like Gene Wesley Roddenberry's Wesley Crusher; yes, for those of
>you that don't know, Wesley was named after the Great Bird.
>Personally, I'm of the opinion that Wesley might have worked better
>had he a) not gotten the ship out of every tight spot in the first
>season, b) been the original female Leslie Crusher character, and c)
>not been played by Wil Wheaton).

I said that as well. I've had too many people declare a work bad and MSTing fodder simply because it has an SI. And ah yes, Wesley Crusher is one of the
more notorious "real work" Mary Sues.

Ben Hutchins and co, are indeed one of the cooler fic writers as well, I'm
just mentioning the notable Eyrien earmarks that work well in some series
kinda fall flat in others.

...on the other hand, I did by the In Nomine RPG shortly after reading Arc 3.
So it must have something in it.

Tim McLees

>I've seen and read enough stuff that there's more to "Mary Sue" than
>just
>boffo SI characters capable of everything and adored by all.

Um, dude, that's what a Mary Sue is. They're characters that ruin all dramatic tension by being far too capable and likable to create any kind of doubt as to the outcome of any given conflict, and are often avatars of their creators as well.

> They are,
>in short, the outlet through which Stuff Happens within a series, thus
>becoming the mouthpiece for the creators to express his story and
>ideas. Perhaps I should point to the viewpoint of Shinji as an outlet
>for Anno to use
>EVA as his own personal couch trip, especially in the later stuff.

But that's not what a Mary Sue is. Writing is a lot of things, including allowing the author to express ideas and emotions. In addition to the above example of Anno exorcising his neuroses, I'll also mention how Mark Waid used events in his own personal life as a way of providing source material for ideas for his run on The Flash (he admitted to this, but he never specified just what he was going through in anything I've read), or that the real source of James O'Barr's The Crow is the grief O'Barr felt over his girlfriend's murder. The Flash isn't a Mary Sue. Neither was the Crow. But they did express their writer's/creator's emotional life.

>Likewise, Kermit, in all his awkward glory,
>also serves as
>a mouthpiece that reacts and interprets whats around him, as well as
>the
>driving force of the story. This is apparent particularly in Jim
>Henson's
>earlier Muppet movies.

But Kermit exists as a character for the viewer to relate to. He's the closest to an everyman (everyfrog?) in the Muppets, and thus we understand the stories through his perspective and our ability to relate to him.

> Finally, kids show or not, Satoshi's
>definately an outlet type character as well, he's even named after the
>series *creator*...

I've only watched enough Pokemon to know that it slaughters neurons by the thousands if it's watched in too great amounts. Urgh.

The main issue I'm pointing at here is that outlet != Mary Sue. SI != Mary Sue. UF Redneck is an SI, but he's most definitely not a Mary Sue. (He verges on Mary Sue-ism in Die Hardly, but never quite crosses the line.)

Let's look at Neil Gaiman's seminal work The Sandman. Many of the characters, at one point or another, are speaking directly for Gaiman, to some degree or another. Matthew the Raven takes on this role most often, by virtue of the fact that he's the newest creature to the Dreaming, and he echoes our own questions about what we're seeing. Delirium's lines are what Gaiman wrote most naturally; he himself described writing her as "shutting up and just listening". But there isn't a character in the entire series that's so immensely capable and so central and so shove-your-finger-down-your-throat perfect that they even come close to Mary Sue-ism. For a real idea of just why Mary Sues are so fscking annoying I recommend Merlin Missy's Mary Sue Litmus Test. It was originally written for Gargs fic, but it fits other stuff as well, and there's some links down at the bottom for further Mary Sue resources.

>Hmmm... yes, I'm kinda familiar with Marrissa and MSTings... I kinda
>run
>a site full of them. I've kinda been involved with MST and anime
>fandom
>for at least five years. Some of the more "evil" authors (Thinker, the
>afformentioned Ratliff) actually swing by to hang, they're pretty
>cool.

Yeah, I've seen that Ratliff has a pretty good sense of humor about the MiSTing of his work. I'm also frightened by the fact that people have written omake based on his work.

>That points kinda bugged me about him too, but he does indeed get
>better
>in the second and third arcs. Like I said, my issue isn't with DJ, its
>the more UF-ish elements in the later storylines.

That didn't bug me so much. In a story of the nature of NXE, eventually, you do have to delve into the cosmology, as it's what's central to the struggle all the characters are involved in. When the In Nomine elements showed up as being central to the overall conflict, it didn't bother me, as it was providing an explanation of just exactly what was going on, and why everyone was fighting.

Beyond that, I just like anything that uses Christian mythology in weird ways, like Preacher, or In Nomine, or just about anything by Neil Gaiman that deals with angels/demons/the Devil (Murder Mysteries is one of my favorite short stories of all time).

>I said that as well. I've had too many people declare a work bad and
>MSTing fodder simply because it has an SI. And ah yes, Wesley Crusher
>is one of the
>more notorious "real work" Mary Sues.

I'm not contesting that statement. But I think you're using the term "Mary Sue" to describe characters that don't fit the archetype (Satoshi? maybe, I haven't seen enough, but it wouldn't surprise me, but neither Kermit nor Shinji are remotely Mary Sue).

>Ben Hutchins and co, are indeed one of the cooler fic writers as well,
>I'm
>just mentioning the notable Eyrien earmarks that work well in some
>series
>kinda fall flat in others.

*shrug* The stuff by the core Eyrie staff has never bothered me on any level (with some exceptions, like figuring out Ronin's somewhat disjointed style); I've got some mixed feelings about some of the other UF works.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>*shrug* The stuff by the core Eyrie staff has never bothered me on any
>level

Wow - you're way ahead of me, then. I cringe, I wince at some of the things I have done. :)

(with some exceptions, like figuring out Ronin's somewhat
>disjointed style); I've got some mixed feelings about some of the
>other UF works.

Trivia time: The time shifts in Ronin were originally delimited by font changes, but they didn't survive the transition to Usenet.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Wow - you're way ahead of me, then. I cringe, I wince at some
>of the things I have done. :)

Yeah, we're all our own worst critics. Whenever I've posted a story (granted, I haven't posted in fanfic in about three years, but still), I've always felt that it's pretty good. Now I go back and read stuff I thought was decent when I wrote it, and now I wince and shudder.

I'm not saying that, say, HL4 or NXE isn't vastly superior over some of the early UF works, but that's a great thing, 'cause we're getting to see an author go from good to better. And while much of the work on Eyrie is far from perfect... well, ever read some of Shakespeare's really early stuff? It's bloody awful. (And I'm saying this as a Shakespeare nut. "Bad revolting stars"? Umm... what?) But bad Eyrie is far better than, say, good Ratliff. (I don't mean to be picking on Ratliff, but he's the first name that pops into my head when I try to think of a well-known, aggressively bad fanfic author.)

>Trivia time: The time shifts in Ronin were originally delimited
>by font changes, but they didn't survive the transition to Usenet.

That would probably render Ronin much less confusing. Personally, I always write in ASCII text and, if formatting is necessary, do it in HTML.

Which brings up a question... the Eyrie stuff is posted as just plain text; has there ever been any thought to HTMLizing it? That's not possible on Usenet (well, unless you want to piss off a whole lot of people), but on a website, it makes a certain sense.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>>Trivia time: The time shifts in Ronin were originally delimited
>>by font changes, but they didn't survive the transition to Usenet.
>
>That would probably render Ronin much less confusing.
>Personally, I always write in ASCII text and, if formatting is
>necessary, do it in HTML.
>

At the time I was using whatever tools came to hand, and, being offline in the winter of 1992/93, that tool was MS-Works, or maybe GeoWrite. I don't even remember how I managed to post the story once I was done with it - I probably sent it to Zoner on a disk or something.

Nowadays I do everything in GNU Emacs 19.

>Which brings up a question... the Eyrie stuff is posted as just plain
>text; has there ever been any thought to HTMLizing it? That's not
>possible on Usenet (well, unless you want to piss off a whole lot of
>people), but on a website, it makes a certain sense.

Not really. I converted NXE1:1 to HTML once, but didn't like the way it looked. I dislike the way HTML formats paragraphs in long pieces, since I deliberately use the difference between indented paragraphs and blank-lines-between-paragraphs to break out unusual things in my text (like correspondence).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Now, it seems to me that this debate is more about the definition of Mary Sue than whether or not DJ is one. Anyone know who originally created the term and how they defined it? That could help.

No weird pictures today, I don't feel like looking them up. *sigh*

>Now, it seems to me that this debate is more about the definition of
>Mary Sue than whether or not DJ is one. Anyone know who originally
>created the term and how they defined it? That could help.

Okay, the link I put up in my last post has a pretty good definition of Mary Sues, both specific to Gargoyles and in general, and it's what I use for an acid test on the Mary Sue-ness of a particular character. However, I was aware of and using the term Mary Sue well before I came across that; the first fanfic I ever read on the 'net was Star Trek and Highlander stuff (not crossovers between the two... well, not much, they don't mix well), and Mary Sues are abundant in both fandoms.

As far as I know, the origin of the term started out in the Trek fanfic, possibly as early as the 'zine days in the 70s (I know that's where the term "slash" comes from); I don't know if it referred to a specific character, or as a name for the specific type of character we're discussing here.

I don't consider any random SI as a Mary Sue, although many Mary Sues are SIs to some degree (Wesley Crusher, or the X-Men mutant version of the author in far too many bad X-Men fanfics). Not every SI is a Mary Sue (as I've said before Redneck is an SI who is NOT a Mary Sue), and not every Mary Sue is an SI (again, DJ Croft is rampant Mary Sue, but not an SI character). It's a Venn diagram thingy; they overlap, but are not the same thing.

As for what a Mary Sue is, I believe I've stated the definition in various forms many times through this thread. I'm not going to repeat myself here (well, any more than I already have).

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Now, it seems to me that this debate is more about the definition of
>Mary Sue than whether or not DJ is one. Anyone know who originally
>created the term and how they defined it?

Yes.

It originated with a Star Trek fanfic back in the zine/APA days. The name of the character was Mary Sue, and she was an obvious author avatar taken to extremes - wins Kirk's heart, saves the ship, etc. Kind of a proto-Wesley Crusher with sex... ;-)

It was reviled enough that the characters name became the name for the archetype - hence a 'Mary Sue' character.

It DOES NOT just apply to the author writing themselves, or bits of themselves, into the story - Shinji is NOT a Mary Sue, SI != Mary Sue, none of Gaiman's characters in Sandman are Mary Sues, etc. I don't think we have any Mary Sues in Eyrie works - just blantant SI. Which we started before anyone involved had ever heard of SI - it was some years after UF was released that SI started being used in the online anime fanfic community discussions. And SI wasn't looked down upon at first - then the countless hordes of SI Ranma fics were unleashed, most of them bad, and SI got a bad rep.

DJ comes perhaps closest in some of the early NXE stories, but, IMHO, backs away from the line in short order. Of course, he can't be a Mary Sue anyway - NXE doesn't take place in the NGE universe. It is more a new story using elements of NGE than a real fanfic.

Prerequisites for being a Mary Sue are basically being an author avatar *and* being better than perfect - and generally it is a prerequisite that the story takes place in the established universe. So a story using Trek characters but in a different setting that has a character like that would not really be a Mary Sue. But if the story was *in* the Trek universe, and you introduced a perfect character - it would be. (Wesley is a Mary Sue, most people agree on that - well, some people say if it is in canon it can't be, but if he were a fanfic character he would be, hands down.)

A Mary Sue generally can do no wrong and has no faults. They're better at everything - in Trek a Mary Sue would probably know more than Spock and have more daring than Kirk. They make the existing characters look weaker just by being around - they solve the problems and save the day, and, of course, always win the guy/girl. Usually all of this is done without sufficient explanation - you know, she walks onto the bridge and Kirk is smitten. Setup? Character evolution? What?

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>she walks onto the bridge and Kirk is smitten.

In all fairness, it should be pointed out that that particular set of events is near legendary in the Trek universe. Face facts, Kirk was smitten by nearly everything in a skirt <which is, no doubt, why the originator character for the term first happened in that universe, Kirk made it WAY too easy>

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Kirk - The Wilt Chamberlin of Starfleet"

>>she walks onto the bridge and Kirk is smitten.
>In all fairness, it should be pointed out that that particular set of
>events is near legendary in the Trek universe. Face facts, Kirk was
>smitten by nearly everything in a skirt

No, he wasn't smitten - he was just horny all the time. ;-) Hey, he is a sailor... ;-)

Ok, perhaps I should have said "in love" immediately - as in the Mary Sue character became his one true love. She was the perfect woman, Kirk would never again chase a skirt...

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>>she walks onto the bridge and Kirk is smitten.
>>In all fairness, it should be pointed out that that particular set of
>>events is near legendary in the Trek universe. Face facts, Kirk was
>>smitten by nearly everything in a skirt
>
>No, he wasn't smitten - he was just horny all the time. ;-) Hey, he
>is a sailor... ;-)
>
>Ok, perhaps I should have said "in love" immediately - as in the Mary
>Sue character became his one true love. She was the perfect woman,
>Kirk would never again chase a skirt...

For some reason, a Terry Pratchett quote comes almost immediately to mind: "Grandpa would chase anything in a skirt. His skirt, you understand..."

-Michael
Napalm. It sticks to ignorance.

>It originated with a Star Trek fanfic back in the zine/APA days. The
>name of the character was Mary Sue, and she was an obvious author
>avatar taken to extremes - wins Kirk's heart, saves the ship, etc.
>Kind of a proto-Wesley Crusher with sex... ;-)

Once again, thanks to Zoner for remembering this better than I did. (I have read this bit before, along with how the term "slash" came about, but I only read it once or twice, back in '94 or '95 or whenever it was I first heard the term and wondered what the fsck people were talking about.)

>It DOES NOT just apply to the author writing themselves, or bits of
>themselves, into the story - Shinji is NOT a Mary Sue, SI != Mary Sue,
>none of Gaiman's characters in Sandman are Mary Sues, etc.

Which is what I've been saying for this entire subthread.

> I don't
>think we have any Mary Sues in Eyrie works - just blantant SI.

Ehhh... maybe. I'll get back to that in a sec.

>DJ comes perhaps closest in some of the early NXE stories, but, IMHO,
>backs away from the line in short order.

I dunno about this. I'll allow that the authors know more about the characters than the readers do, but DJ's breadth of ability makes him pretty strongly Mary Sue. He doesn't outshine all the other characters all the time, but his level of ability is way above baseline in this universe, and he doesn't behave like any 14-year-old I've EVER met (neither do Rei or Jon, but they're special cases).

DJ's the closest Eyrie comes to a true Mary Sue, but, occasionally, Eyrie characters do Mary Sue-ish things (like Gryph blithely speed-dialing Benton Quest in WL, when we've never had any hint that the Quest characters exist in this universe; he gets away with it because WL is so over-the-top that just about anything goes, but still...).

> Of course, he can't be a
>Mary Sue anyway - NXE doesn't take place in the NGE universe. It is
>more a new story using elements of NGE than a real fanfic.

By that standard, UF isn't a fanfic either, since it isn't set in an established universe, but amalgamates elements of... well... everything.

>Prerequisites for being a Mary Sue are basically being an author
>avatar *and* being better than perfect - and generally it is a
>prerequisite that the story takes place in the established universe.

Ehh. Characters can be blithely, stupidly, amazingly better-than-perfect without *really* being an author avatar (I really don't want to consider that Marrissa Picard is an avatar of Stephen Ratliff; that's too disturbing for words), and I don't necessarily see the "established universe" thing as a requisite, since that kinda goes along with the requirement that the story be a straight fanfic.

>A Mary Sue generally can do no wrong and has no faults. They're
>better at everything - in Trek a Mary Sue would probably know more
>than Spock and have more daring than Kirk. They make the existing
>characters look weaker just by being around - they solve the problems
>and save the day, and, of course, always win the guy/girl. Usually
>all of this is done without sufficient explanation - you know, she
>walks onto the bridge and Kirk is smitten. Setup? Character
>evolution? What?

Okay, this is the best concise description of the Mary Sue I've read yet. All hail MegaZone.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>I dunno about this. I'll allow that the authors know more about the
>characters than the readers do, but DJ's breadth of ability makes him
>pretty strongly Mary Sue. He doesn't outshine all the other
>characters all the time, but his level of ability is way above
>baseline in this universe, and he doesn't behave like any 14-year-old
>I've EVER met (neither do Rei or Jon, but they're special cases).

He's not a Mary Sue - that's the style of the universe. Think 'Young Indiana Jones' and the like - he's a big 'H' Hero. Actually I believe Gryph thinks of him as a young version of Pierce Brosnan's James Bond.

Oh, and as for the 'special case' thing - are you so sure DJ isn't? ;-)

Even putting that aside for now, it is also his upbringing. It is not unfeasible for a 14 year old to do the things he does. Not too many generations back it wasn't unusual for 14 year olds to be soliders, to have families, to be travellers and explorers.

Even today you can find plenty of stories about young teens flying a light plane around the world, winning shooting contests, speaking scores of languages, etc. Yes, they are at the high end of the bell curve, and therefore not average, but they exist.

How many 14 year old girls build killer robots as a hobby? There's at least one building them today.

As for DJ's attitude and approach to life, he actually isn't very far off from me at 14 - I was a lot more sarcastic though, and wasn't nearly as talented, not by a long shot.

>DJ's the closest Eyrie comes to a true Mary Sue, but, occasionally,
>Eyrie characters do Mary Sue-ish things (like Gryph blithely
>speed-dialing Benton Quest in WL, when we've never had any hint that
>the Quest characters exist in this universe; he gets away with it
>because WL is so over-the-top that just about anything goes, but
>still...).

That's not Mary Sue - that's the Street Fighter Universe! My character owns at least one multi-million dollar aircraft (a C-130), and is pals with the director of the CIA! The entire universe is designed to be over the top and exaggerated.

Calling up Quest is mainly a bit of a joke - we don't plan to feature them as major characters or anything. But it is inline with the godlike position of our characters. Which would make them Mary Sues - if they didn't fit the universe. When you're a World Warrior, you ARE godlike. My character is a bit inspired by Richard Greco in If Looks Could Kill. We wrote ourselves up as SF game characters in the White Wolf system, and that's who we are in the stories.

>By that standard, UF isn't a fanfic either

I agree, it really isn't a fanfic by normal definitions. We call it that for want of a better term. (I've seen 'amalgamfic' - but that's hideously clumsy.)

>Ehh. Characters can be blithely, stupidly, amazingly
>better-than-perfect without *really* being an author avatar

Oh yes - but by the definitions I'm familiar with, such a character is not a Mary Sue - they're just bad writing.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Even today you can find plenty of stories about young teens flying a
>light plane around the world, winning shooting contests, speaking
>scores of languages, etc. Yes, they are at the high end of the bell
>curve, and therefore not average, but they exist.

I'm not contending that. I've met some pretty extraordinary 14-year-olds (and I'm sure that many here were waaaaaaaay above baseline when they were 14, just like I was). Hell, my goddaughter is a frighteningly intelligent and advanced 4-year-old (she learned to read on her own).

This reminds me of one of the odd things I've experienced as both a writer and as a fan of all kinds of fiction; often, the things that are hardest to find believable are taken straight from reality. As an example, Wanda Mann from the Sandman story arc A Game of You was a preoperative transsexual who was absolutely terrified of surgery, and thus had not yet gotten the surgery done. Gaiman took this from a preop he knew who was in exactly the same situation, but critics focused on this character as being unbelievable. Weird, huh?

>That's not Mary Sue - that's the Street Fighter Universe! My
>character owns at least one multi-million dollar aircraft (a C-130),
>and is pals with the director of the CIA! The entire universe is
>designed to be over the top and exaggerated.

Yeah, I coulda mentioned that stuff too, but, like I said, it's cool because it's the nature of the universe. If it was being more realistic, for instance, I'd expect that at some point we'd actually have an explanation for Zoner's fortune.

>I agree, it really isn't a fanfic by normal definitions. We call it
>that for want of a better term. (I've seen 'amalgamfic' - but that's
>hideously clumsy.)

Gich. That IS clumsy.

Personally, I categorize as fanfic anything that uses an established universe, or elements from an established universe, that is done on an amateur basis rather than contracted for print publication (that's profic). So UF and NXE are fanfics, but UF is kind of a meta-fanfic; that is, it's a fanfic based on being a science-fiction, fantasy, and/or anime fan in general, rather than a specific fandom or group of fandoms. NXE is much closer to a "normal" fanfic, in that it's a recognizable mutation of NGE (as opposed to a fic set in the established NGE universe); it's too far away from the source material to be a proper AU fic, though.

>Oh yes - but by the definitions I'm familiar with, such a character is
>not a Mary Sue - they're just bad writing.

Fair enough. To me, the term "Mary Sue" describes the archetype without the fanfic connotations, since that force of the universe known as "editors" keep it from happening in professional and wholly original fiction (although it still happens, occasionally). It's sort of like someone I know who uses the term "slash" to describe any fic that is about a non-canonical romantic or sexual relationship, rather than the usual definition of slash.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-01 AT 10:55 PM (EDT)

>He's not a Mary Sue - that's the style of the universe. Think 'Young
>Indiana Jones' and the like - he's a big 'H' Hero. Actually I believe
>Gryph thinks of him as a young version of Pierce Brosnan's James Bond.

i like the combination - probably because it's what i had in mind after i read it

Indiana Jones was my first impression because it fit so well with the Tomb Raider background, but then DJ's just not a Harrison Ford character without the cynicism/sarcasm from most of his tradmark hero roles .. part-Bond works nicely ..

>Even putting that aside for now, it is also his upbringing. It is not
>unfeasible for a 14 year old to do the things he does.
>
>Even today you can find plenty of stories about young teens flying a
>light plane around the world, winning shooting contests, speaking
>scores of languages, etc. Yes, they are at the high end of the bell
>curve, and therefore not average, but they exist.

nah, i find DJ's not realistic. he's fully in character (for the character you guys invented) but i don't buy that finding individuals with each of his talents or traits makes us any more likely to find someone the same as - or even close to - who he is.

it's weird, but i kind of like to believe the fact that something didn't happen denies that the event could have happened (although not that it might happen at some point). it's what fiction is - telling the world to be something that it isn't.

still, i wish someone like Croft was around. it's not that there's a demand for heroes these days, but wishful thinking gives people something to aspire to and i think i could do worse than aspire to someone like that.

even if it's not a real person ^_^

>As for DJ's attitude and approach to life, he actually isn't very far
>off from me at 14 - I was a lot more sarcastic though, and wasn't
>nearly as talented, not by a long shot.

cool - we can get Harrison Ford to play you in the movie then :P

>I agree, it really isn't a fanfic by normal definitions. We call it
>that for want of a better term. (I've seen 'amalgamfic' - but that's
>hideously clumsy.)

enormific

i can't say someone hasn't thought up a better word than it, but that one's mine :)

of course, Undocumented Features is more the definition of one, than an enormific being a description of UF

.rugle
"there was only one of me in the wired - i was just in all sorts of people"-- lain

>it's weird, but i kind of like to believe the fact that something
>didn't happen denies that the event could have happened

... Weird. I'm not sure I can get my head around that. Let me try:

>i can't say someone hasn't thought up a better word than it

... but if they haven't, then that proves that nobody could have?

Boy, that's a strange perspective.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>i can't say someone hasn't thought up a better word than it
>
>... but if they haven't, then that proves that nobody could have?

:blinks:

yeah .. actually, that's it entirely. nobody could have, but it doesn't mean that they won't

>Boy, that's a strange perspective.

mm

so's looking at funhouse mirrors through binoculars backwards. but that's not my perspective ..

oh well, time to go study for coding, crypto and sweet functional analysis

.rugle
"that thing with the watch you do .. what does that mean anyway?" -- nanami

>oh well, time to go study for coding, crypto and sweet functional
>analysis

Oh, you're a cryptonaut. That explains everything. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Oh, you're a cryptonaut. That explains everything. :)

be(cs&ee)/bsc(math)

i'm aiming scratch up enough letters so that they outnumber my name :)

the only thing i care about of coding&crypto right now is my mark on the midsemester tomorrow (since i've never sat a c&c exam before, it hasn't been possible for me to pass one yet - hopefully by tomorrow afternoon this will no longer be the case)

.rugle
"the translation is on the left" "how fiendishly clever" -- 1/2

After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that much. Maybe they see something in NXE that was missing in the original? I, for one, really loved NGE. I thought the characterization was excellent, I got the disturbing and tragic elements, and I found the ending a very touching and fulfilling climax to the series. Some people, however, may wonder what the hell was up with those last two episodes. They may not like their characters to be neurotic, and will to respond to Shinji's emotional hangups with "Hey! You got angst in my giant robots!" They want their heroes to be heroic, someone to be looked up to. Shinji doesn't fit the bill. DJ does. And thus, an NXE fan is born.

So, I guess what I'm saying here, is that people have different tastes and philosophies, and liking NXE is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Tbis means that not liking NXE is also a perfectly legitimate thing to do, although most people who don't agree with that have probably stopped clicking on my posts already.

I have come to a similar, yet not identical epiphany about our little Croftling. I have decided that it does not matter whether or not he is an SI or a Mary Sue or what have you, because I will hate him anyway, no offense to authors, readers, or random lurkers intended.

Anyone who still reads my ramblings is welcome to comment/flame/prove me wrong.

>After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a
>trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that
>much. Maybe they see something in NXE that was missing in the
>original?

I dunno. I really like both; they're two very different takes on the same core ideas. One is dark, nihilistic, and rampantly neurotic; the other is larger than life, cinematic, and heroic. I like both kinds of stories; I read Batman, and I also read the Flash. I liked The Fisher King, and I liked Twelve Monkeys. All of us go through absolutely horrible times (I'm in the middle of some right now myself), and there are other times when we're at the top of the world. Nothing wrong with liking both.

> "Hey! You got angst in
>my giant robots!"

I just want to say that I find this line really, really amusing.

> They want their heroes to be heroic, someone to be
>looked up to.

Nothing wrong with that. A lot of comics in the late 80's and early 90's starred repetitive, angsty, unshaven characters doing repetitive, angsty, unshaven things. Not all that exciting, especially in the superhero genre... I mean, aren't superheroes supposed to be heroic? But you can't have that all the time, which is why Flash TPB's share shelf space with The Authority, why Sandman hangs with Preacher on my bookcase.

>So, I guess what I'm saying here, is that people have different tastes
>and philosophies, and liking NXE is a perfectly legitimate thing to
>do.

This sounds like pretty much all matters of taste.

You've got every right to hate NXE. I've heard a lot of people who think Kevin J. Anderson is a good writer; personally, I think every one of them is smoking crack, but they're all entitled to their own opinions. That's just part of being human.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>I dunno. I really like both; they're two very different takes on the
>same core ideas. One is dark, nihilistic, and rampantly neurotic; the
>other is larger than life, cinematic, and heroic. I like both kinds
>of stories; I read Batman, and I also read the Flash. I liked The
>Fisher King, and I liked Twelve Monkeys. All of us go through
>absolutely horrible times (I'm in the middle of some right now
>myself), and there are other times when we're at the top of the world.
> Nothing wrong with liking both.

You do have a very good point here. There are differences between NXE/NGE and other dark/light contrasts, though, in that NXE is an altered version of its darker counterpart. This goes some way towards fostering resentment. Would I hate DJ if he were a character in an original fiction? Probably. But probably not nearly as much as I hate him after displacing a character I already know and love. So I'm not seeing NXE for the heroic epic that it is--I'm seeing it for what it isn't; a brutal, unmerciful delving into the darker recesses of the human soul.* This will be a handicap for any fanfic, but NXE deviates more than most from the original thing. Hence, controversy.

*I cannot believe I just typed that.

>I dunno. I really like both; they're two very different takes on the
>same core ideas. One is dark, nihilistic, and rampantly neurotic; the
>other is larger than life, cinematic, and heroic

And if you keep repeating that maybe it'll become true?

>After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a
>trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that
>much. Maybe they see something in NXE that was missing in the
>original? I, for one, really loved NGE.

... This is the most stunningly obvious thing ever. I mean, where do you think the notion to make NXE came from in the first place? It was me, thinking, "This setting and character set could make a pretty good series, if the writer wasn't so hung up on how awful everything is." :)

>do. Tbis means that not liking NXE is also a perfectly legitimate
>thing to do

Indeed it is. But it begs the question - if you don't, then why are you hanging around a fan forum for something you don't like?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a
>>trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that
>>much. Maybe they see something in NXE that was missing in the
>>original? I, for one, really loved NGE.
>
>... This is the most stunningly obvious thing ever. I mean, where do
>you think the notion to make NXE came from in the first place?
>It was me, thinking, "This setting and character set could make a
>pretty good series, if the writer wasn't so hung up on how awful
>everything is." :)

I liked NGE more than Gryph did, but there is one thing about it that I absolutely hated... Anno had no interest in redeeming any of the characters in that series. (Some would argue that Shinji was redeemed at the end, but I don't agree. And even if it's true, that's one out of how many?)

Let's recap:

Misato nearly comes to terms with her relationship with Kaji and her attitude towards her father... but then is forced to kill Kaji, and is killed.

Asuka comes in swaggering and in serious denial, spends the bulk of the series slooooooowly inching towards a healthier attitude... then is mind-mauled by an angel and descends into insanity.

Ritsuko... never even really comes close to redemption. And then she gets imprisoned and dies.

Rei gradually becomes more comfortable around others, and appears to be forming the bonds of true friendship for the first time... then sent back to square one by an angel attack, and we later find out that Anno never really considered her a "person" after all.

Kaji didn't really need redemption... so he dies at the halfway point, his usefulness as a plot device at an end.

Toji changes from J. Random Bully to a sympathetic character to a tragic figure... and then never appears again. (Oh, that proto-relationship with Hikari? That was just to make it clear to us just how much it sucked to be him. You don't need to know how things went from there... it really doesn't matter anyway, they'll both be dead soon.)

On and on and on and on...

--truss.

>Let's recap:

<snip the body count>

>On and on and on and on...

Dear me. Now I'm glad I never finished NGE. That sounds really, really awful. And a round of applause to the EPU folks involved for salvaging NXE out of that. My appreciation of the series just went up. :)

------------------------------
"You're a louse, Roger Smith."
------------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>Dear me. Now I'm glad I never finished NGE. That sounds really,
>really awful. And a round of applause to the EPU folks involved for
>salvaging NXE out of that. My appreciation of the series just went
>up. :)

You and me both. Ick. I've seen a grand total of one tape of NGE. I thought
the artwork was beautiful, the characters were flawed enough to be interesting but MAN what a screwed up situation, and it only goes from bad to worse.

I've no intent to watch the rest of NGE but I check the "What's New" page
here at EPU almost every day. Says where my tastes are.

>Chad Collier
>Digital Bitch
>J. Random VFX Company

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>Captain Willard
>Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

Oh, heh, my mind was summoning a different Captain Willard there for a moment...

:)

------------------------
"We are totally fluxed."
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>>Captain Willard
>>Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front
>
>Oh, heh, my mind was summoning a different
>Captain Willard there for a moment...

I saw "Free Socorro Liberation Front" and the first thing that popped into my mind was "People's Front of Judea" or "Judean People's Front"?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>I saw "Free Socorro Liberation Front" and the first thing that popped
>into my mind was "People's Front of Judea" or "Judean People's Front"?

???
<blink, blink>

Ahh.... I'll explain mine if you'll explain yours?

Socorro (Spanish for "Help") is a town in central New Mexico, south of Albuquerque. It's the location of New Mexico Tech and my home since 1992.

Mythically, when Mexico ceded New Mexico to the US, the section of the treaty concerning Socorro county got lost. Mexico gave up their claim on it but the US has no legal claim on it. Thus, the Free State of Socorro is an independant nation.

Now then. I grew up on comic books, of course. I came to Socorro, heard about the Free State, saw that it wasn't so.

Hence, the Free Socorro Liberation Front. Committed to random acts of senseless weirdness. And maybe the "liberation" (whatever that means) of Socorro.

(Note to any feds reading this: JOKE! JOKE!!)

In real life, this includes putting up strange posters, leaving strange messages on chalk-boards, and making monyana jokes. (No Jefe, we take over the world monyana. <Nods wisely>)

Fictionally the FSLF is somewhat more active. We had to self-destruct our fusion reactor under M Mountain, but the organization recovered. Recently the FSLF Computer Division made a breakthough in AI design (based partially on the Cylon AI core), the Simulated Intelligence Logistics Vector Integrating Engine. SILVIE is currently undergoing stability testing aboard the Battlestar _Galactica_. When World War III started, the FSLF was able to safely shelter the entire population of Socorro (about 10,000 for the town) with a combination of extensive underground shelters and anti-radiation force-fields. Also, when the United Earth decided to exile the whole of New Mexico Tech for being a bunch of free-thinking intelligicia (sp?), the FSLF not only ensured that the process was orderly and everyone survived, but invited much of the world's current great thinkers to go along for the ride, then hacked the colony ship's destination to a far nicer world than the UE had planned. New Socorro has since been a thorn in the side of the UE-dominated Confederation of Worlds, and the FSLF stated goal is to be a thorn in the side of the New Socorro government.

Your turn. What's this about Judea? I'm not grokking.

>-- Sean --

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>Hence, the Free Socorro Liberation Front. Committed to random acts of
>senseless weirdness. And maybe the "liberation" (whatever that means)
>of Socorro.

Ah, I see. Interesting :).

>Your turn. What's this about Judea? I'm not grokking.

As for what I said... well, go rent "Monty Python's the Life of Brian." I don't think I can really explain it myself... just go see the movie ^_^.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>As for what I said... well, go rent "Monty Python's the Life of
>Brian." I don't think I can really explain it myself... just go see
>the movie ^_^.

Ahh. Actually, I think I'll skip that. I've never had much of a taste
for British humor, and none at all for Monty Python.

<shrug> It's just a taste thing. And anyone who knows me can tell you
that I have no taste.

>-- Sean --

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>>Captain Willard
>>Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front
>
>Oh, heh, my mind was summoning a different
>Captain Willard there for a moment...

Yeah, I picked up the nickname from Apocalypse Now. Really, I've always
used it ironically. I'm not a very military sort (just another gweep, really) and I'm no leader even in the best of situations.

But hey, "Wires," which another friend of mine tried to stick me with never really caught on, and the nickname my parents had for me is FSLF classified top secret, burn before reading and suicide aftwards. ;-)

>:)

>Chad Collier

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>>After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a
>>trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that
>>much. Maybe they see something in NXE that was missing in the
>>original? I, for one, really loved NGE.
>
>... This is the most stunningly obvious thing ever. I mean, where do
>you think the notion to make NXE came from in the first place?
>It was me, thinking, "This setting and character set could make a
>pretty good series, if the writer wasn't so hung up on how awful
>everything is." :)

I was mainly talking about the fans on that one. But, yeah. Stunningly obvious? Maybe. It still wasn't a point that had been specifically addressed before. Or maybe it has, and I'm just going senile and forgetting things, in which case, I apologize for making you all click on another one of my boring posts.

>Indeed it is. But it begs the question - if you don't, then why are
>you hanging around a fan forum for something you don't like?

Whelp, for starters, I have no life, and will do anything to keep from actually doing work. Also, I like debating, and opinions. I find the people here interesting, and I want to hear what they have to say about NXE, why they like it, etc.

>
>I was mainly talking about the fans on that one. But, yeah. Stunningly
>obvious? Maybe. It still wasn't a point that had been specifically
>addressed before. Or maybe it has, and I'm just going senile and
>forgetting things, in which case, I apologize for making you all click
>on another one of my boring posts.
>

<faux english stereotypical accent>
Sorry old chap, and all and what not, but it was in either the preface or in an author's note of somesuch in the first posted episode.
</FESA>

Seriously, I recall reading that when I began to read NXE, and couldn't really blame Gryph at all for feeling that way. I was (and actually still am) about 6-8 episodes from the end, and haven't ever felt like completing my 'education' there after the hunger of new anime wore thin.

>>Indeed it is. But it begs the question - if you don't, then why are
>>you hanging around a fan forum for something you don't like?
>
>Whelp, for starters, I have no life, and will do anything to keep from
>actually doing work. Also, I like debating, and opinions. I find the
>people here interesting, and I want to hear what they have to say
>about NXE, why they like it, etc.

Which is fine, I suppose, if you don't go to extremes of having to point out your view to it on a thread, just so that the minority (only in viewpoint to this forum, not necessarily to anything larger than that) is known. That's relatively my only complaint on the 'detractors'. It semi seems to boil down to things that are all viewpoint and then are repeated.

--Mek

>
>... This is the most stunningly obvious thing ever. I mean, where do
>you think the notion to make NXE came from in the first place?
>It was me, thinking, "This setting and character set could make a
>pretty good series, if the writer wasn't so hung up on how awful
>everything is." :)
>

Hrmm... I'd think the dark and intense setting was what made Evangelion
great. The problem being these elements danced a fine line between establishing storyworld flavor and usage for Anno's Rorscheck Test, a line it tends to
delve over later in the series and movie.

I enjoyed Evangelion and the NXE series as independant units, myself. I'd wager it started weird readers out in Arc 3 when you began working without the canonical net (Not drawing from the series for the baseline plot), still it was a fun series overall, and want to see how you wrap it up with the movie.

Though there are a pair of minor points of concern:

1)Why "Kevin" and "Tommy"? That is, giving the Eva supporting cast dubbed names.
Just curious about that...

2) Was the ref to Shinji mentioning his "twin cousin from Kansas" what I thought it was? Or am I hallucinating?

Tim McLees
Flip Mode is the Squad, and I am Sci Fi... or something.

>1)Why "Kevin" and "Tommy"? That is, giving the Eva supporting cast
>dubbed names.

Probably because I thought there were too many people with Japanese names in the series already, and though the names of the various NERV personnel could be explained (they were transplants), the fact that so many regular ordinary people living in Worcester had such names could not.

Or maybe I was just feeling perverse.

>2) Was the ref to Shinji mentioning his "twin cousin from Kansas" what
>I thought it was? Or am I hallucinating?

I don't recall what you're referring to.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>
>Probably because I thought there were too many people with Japanese
>names in the series already, and though the names of the various NERV
>personnel could be explained (they were transplants), the fact that so
>many regular ordinary people living in Worcester had such names could
>not.
>
>Or maybe I was just feeling perverse.

I'll vote on the second option :P

>
>>2) Was the ref to Shinji mentioning his "twin cousin from Kansas" what
>>I thought it was? Or am I hallucinating?
>
>I don't recall what you're referring to.
>

The scene late in Arc 3 with Shinji and DJ. When DJ asks Shinji where he'll go
he pondered going to visit his cousin in the Midwest ("Kansas, I think, or Nebraska, one of those flat states")

Eh, guess it was just coincidence. Amusing one nonetheless.

Tim McLees
"Flip Mode is the Squad!"

>The scene late in Arc 3 with Shinji and DJ. When DJ asks Shinji where he'll go
>he pondered going to visit his cousin in the Midwest ("Kansas, I
>think, or Nebraska, one of those flat states")

Oh, that. That wasn't a reference to anything in particular - Shinji wasn't even telling the truth. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>The scene late in Arc 3 with Shinji and DJ. When DJ asks Shinji where he'll go
>>he pondered going to visit his cousin in the Midwest ("Kansas, I
>>think, or Nebraska, one of those flat states")
>
>Oh, that. That wasn't a reference to anything in particular - Shinji
>wasn't even telling the truth. :)
>

Aha! Okay, just wondering about that... I occassionally use the Shinji moniker online *and* I happen to originate from one of the Flat States.

Guess it was a weird coincidence.

Tim McLees
"Maybe Godzilla went inside a building!"

>... This is the most stunningly obvious thing ever. I mean, where do
>you think the notion to make NXE came from in the first place?
>It was me, thinking, "This setting and character set could make a
>pretty good series, if the writer wasn't so hung up on how awful
>everything is." :)

Wow. You just summed up everything that I've ever thought about World of Darkness in one sentence.

I've not yet seen NGE, although I have at least passing familiarity with it, and I'm well aware that the ending is one of the ones where you should feel happy if it doesn't make you want to kill yourself. Considering that's the highest recommendation I've seen of it so far, I don't think I'll put as much effort as I was planning to into getting the DVD set.
-Eliot "Everybody hurts sometimes... a few people turn it into a series..." Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>to respond to Shinji's emotional hangups with "Hey! You got angst in
>my giant robots!"
>

<rant>
This may be a nit, but my reasons for liking NXE over the source don't quite stem from that. I like realism in a story, to an extent. Angst is fine, well done angst can be very moving. But really, I have always prefered stories with either happy endings, or endings that are open to happy things down the line. I haven't actually seen the end of NGE, though I have read and heard about it. Maybe it isn't nearly as depressing as it sounds, but everything I've come across about it so far says 1. acid trip 2. downer. Maybe I'm simplistic, but I don't like my entertainment to be a downer, life in general provides that emotion in ample supply.
</rant>

>Anyone who still reads my ramblings is welcome to comment/flame/prove
>me wrong.

I don't flame, I prefer to slow roast;)

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-01 AT 09:37 AM (EDT)

> <snippage>
> Maybe I'm simplistic, but I don't
>like my entertainment to be a downer, life in general provides that
>emotion in ample supply.
></rant>

I agree, absolutely. Actually, i find it amusing, because I saw someone's sig on the FFML (before it fractured) that was a quote from eyrie's esteemed line editor:

"I guess I'm just an old-fashioned sentimentalist at heart. I refuse to accept a no-win scenario. I hate the thought of a universe without justice. If the maneuverings of dark powers can't be exposed and defeated by the pure of heart, then there's no point in anything. I can't believe that."
-- Benjamin Hutchins

I was:
a) somewhat shocked, since that rather succinctly sums up my thoughts on the matter
b) amused that, not only does oen of my favorite fanfic authors think this way, but
c) someone else thought similarly enough that it was worth of .sig'ing

DOn't take that wrong, please...remember, I agree completely...I'm just used to seeing .sigs that are either historical figures, or fictional characters...seing Gryphon quote was...well shocking and amusing...

I'm now going for my morning caffeine so i stop babbling

>"I guess I'm just an old-fashioned sentimentalist at heart. I
>refuse to accept a no-win scenario. I hate the thought of a universe
>without justice. If the maneuverings of dark powers can't be exposed
>and defeated by the pure of heart, then there's no point in anything.
>I can't believe that."
> -- Benjamin Hutchins
>
>I was:
>a) somewhat shocked, since that rather succinctly sums up my thoughts
>on the matter
>b) amused that, not only does oen of my favorite fanfic authors think
>this way, but
>c) someone else thought similarly enough that it was worth of .sig'ing
>
>DOn't take that wrong, please...remember, I agree completely...I'm
>just used to seeing .sigs that are either historical figures, or
>fictional characters...seing Gryphon quote was...well shocking and
>amusing...
>

You know, I never saw that quote <I haven't been making a nuisance of myself on this area of the net long enough> but it explains something I had wondered for a while, which was WHY I liked Eyrie fics <being not the world's most avid reader, I was surprised at how quickly I read through a fair chunk of the texts here>.

Hmmm, that was fairly rambling, I guess I need more caffeine...

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

>"I guess I'm just an old-fashioned sentimentalist at heart. I
>refuse to accept a no-win scenario. I hate the thought of a universe
>without justice. If the maneuverings of dark powers can't be exposed
>and defeated by the pure of heart, then there's no point in anything.
>I can't believe that."
> -- Benjamin Hutchins

After watching NGE DVD #6 with a friend of mine, and discussing NGE vs. NXE (we both prefer the latter) I was finally able to articulate what it is about NGE that bothers me the most - there are no options. I agree with Gryphon's statement 99+% (and the rest is splitting hairs), there are always options, even if none of them are particularly pleasant. And I think that sums up the whole NGE vs. NXE debate; those of us who simply can't accept a lack of options find that it colors our opinion and pushes us towards NXE and away from NGE.

Yes there are a lot of similarities between the two. Yes, there are times when the only alternative to what's going on is even worse. But the tone implies that no matter how rough things get, the characters are always choosing for themselves. In NGE, there are no options - the "script" is completely linear. We KNOW what is going to happen with Shinji (NGE) and piloting, because, after all, there's no other option. We may also know what Shinji (NXE) is going to do, i.e. return to NERV and try to help - but it's not pre-ordained. The story could have been written differently with Shinji going elsewhere. I have trouble imagining it, but it's possible.

The path you take may lead you to the same place, but there are many ways to get there. There are always options, as long as you don't give up hope. NGE doesn't give that option, where NXE does. And that option, in itself, is proof of that fact.

That's my $0.02 on the subject, sorry for rambling a bit.

Offsides

#include <needmoresleep.h>

>We KNOW what is going to happen
>with Shinji (NGE) and piloting, because, after all, there's no other
>option. We may also know what Shinji (NXE) is going to do, i.e.
>return to NERV and try to help - but it's not pre-ordained.
>

More importantly, it feels like a decision when Shinji (NXE) heads back to Worcester-3. Not, "this is all I can do," but, "this is what I want to do."

Peter Eng
-----
"Hopeless? Fine! So maybe we go out there and get our asses kicked! Fine! But I'll be damned if we don't give 'em a fight to remember before the end! Win or lose, I guarantee you, whoever survives the battle is gonna say, 'Bloody hell, that was one hard fight!'"

Redneck, from Twilight 2.

>More importantly, it feels like a decision when Shinji (NXE) heads
>back to Worcester-3. Not, "this is all I can do," but, "this is what
>I want to do."

Bingo.

>"Hopeless? Fine! So maybe we go out there and get our asses kicked!
>Fine! But I'll be damned if we don't give 'em a fight to remember
>before the end! Win or lose, I guarantee you, whoever survives the
>battle is gonna say, 'Bloody hell, that was one hard fight!'"
>
>Redneck, from Twilight 2.

One word: "Nuts!"

Offsides

#include <history.h>

>This may be a nit, but my reasons for liking NXE over the source don't
>quite stem from that. I like realism in a story, to an extent. Angst
>is fine, well done angst can be very moving. But really, I have always
>prefered stories with either happy endings, or endings that are open
>to happy things down the line.

A story is determined by its ending, in my eyes. You can no more have an excellent series with a lousy ending than you can have a lousy series with an excellent ending. Part of what made me angry with Escaflowne was simply the ending - that the ending was a terrible conclusion to a series that had swiftly become my favorite anime.

One of the running jokes between my SO Erin and I is producing a "Failure of the Human Spirit" movie to counter films such as Saving Private Ryan, Remember the Titans, et al. The film seems normal enough in the beginning, and the lead characters, a group of dynamic and likable individuals, find themselves facing unimaginable odds from both outside the group and within. They struggle, they grasp, and they give everything they can to reach their ultimate goal. And in the end... none of it matters at all, because they fail miserably. The film ends with them crushed, defeated, and without a hope in the world, because even though they tried their hardest, it was hopeless from the beginning, and there wasn't anything they could have done to change the ultimate outcome. It's a joke, of course, because any such movie would render itself meaningless by the ending.

Sad endings, endings that wind up in complete and total failure, only leave me wondering, "What was the point? I devoted time and emotion to this why? The message I'm supposed to walk away with is that people can't succeed?" The real world, much to my approval, does not work that way. Good does triumph over evil, one person can make a difference, and there is some justice left in the universe. It's rarely as dramatic as in over-the-top heroic fantasies, granted, but the fact of the matter is that the universe works for heroes.

As for DJ: what's not to like? He's smart, he's funny, he's capable, he's got emotional problems... I'll agree with Laudre somewhat, he does have Mary Sue-like qualities, but many of those are only surface. Scratch him and it becomes a lot clearer. He mentions to Ritsuko after her suicide attempt that he's a cynic, and it's the truth - you don't notice it at first, but he is untrusting, isolated, and sometimes downright nasty to other people. And for the matter of him being an SI, I quote Truss's NXE avatar: "I state, for the permanent record and without reservation, that this is complete <EXPLETIVE DELETED>."
-Eliot "Well, sort of a Tycho quote, but you know what I mean" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

> The real world, much to my approval, does not
>work that way. Good does triumph over evil, one person
>can make a difference, and there is some justice left in
>the universe.

Good does triumph over evil? There is some justice left in the universe?

I'll try to remember that when I and my sisters sit down with the homocide detective from the Greensboro Police Department to learn all the details of my mother's brutal murder.

I'll try to remember that next Mother's Day, when I'll doubtless be once again hunched over my mother's grave, crying my eyes out.

But rest assured. One person did make a difference. And all it took was a knife.

-- Sean --
Sorry to splash a little cold reality into the discussion...
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>But rest assured. One person did make a difference. And all it took
>was a knife.

By no means do I want to belittle your loss. I feel for you and your family, strongly, with no more detail than that. I've had my share of loss and unfairness, too.

But your argument is semantically equivalent to, "I have felt a cold day in winter, therefore summer does not exist."

Because evil exists, does not mean good doesn't. Because terrible and unjust things happen to people who don't deserve them doesn't mean that there isn't the possibility for the opposite. And anyone who is touched by evil and thereby gives up the belief in good has played into evil's hand, by tacitly granting it omnipotence. I am in no measure a religious person, but I have to say that despair is the greatest of sins, for it allows a nihilism that excuses all further evils, great and small.

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues

First off: I remember reading about the murder on your page only a short while ago, and my heart goes out to you. I understand that I can't begin to understand what you're going through... I wouldn't know exactly what it felt like for you unless I was in your shoes. But I can make a pretty good guess: my father's been dead for only a little over six months, give or take.

Good people die. Senseless things happen. Things don't always work out the way they're "supposed to". But, as was said at my father's funeral, the thing isn't to focus on the fact that they're gone, but the fact that they were good people. I can think of dozens of times over the past few months that I've had no immediate indication that there was anything worthwhile in the world. Yet I still remain convinced of that fact, because given time, the good manages to shine through. The fact that people do terrible, evil things doesn't change that fact.

If you don't choose to hold faith in that, it's your choice. But I know that keeping that in mind is probably the only thing that's kept me alive in the recent past, especially since there have been plenty of times that there wasn't much else.
-Eliot "This took a turn for the darker" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>But I
>can make a pretty good guess: my father's been dead for only a little
>over six months, give or take.

My mother died from over 20 cuts and stab wounds in her own home. There were no signs of forced entry.

The man behind the knife committed suicide in his jail cell, escaping any form of justice I recognize.

I'm sorry to hear about your father. I understand exactly what the loss of a parent feels like, and if my father doesn't go to a doctor I feel like I may be an orphan by year's end. But unless your father also died by violence, then you have absolutely no idea how I feel.

This is what I've figured out since this happened (and I'd already been heading this way anyway):

"Good" and "evil" do not exist as such. They're just moral constructs we use to evaluate actions and people, based on the needs of the larger society. Take any entry-level anthropology or sociology course at the college level, and one of the first things they'll tell you, in explaining things like taboos and mores, is that the only universal taboo is incest. And, even then, the definition of incest can change with the society. There are cultures where someone we would consider a sibling isn't even seen as being related to you.

Nobody is inherently good or evil. People make choices that can be defined as good or evil by the surrounding society. Some actions that are "wrong" are accepted because nobody is visibly hurt, and the culprit Gets Away With It. (Software piracy, anyone?) As a corollary, there are very few people who live lives that can be judged as actively good or actively evil, and many of those who live lives that are actively evil can do quite well for themselves until such time as the judgment of the masses catch up with them. Many such people die before that ever happens.

Sometimes shit happens. It can happen to anyone, at any time. And there is nothing anyone can do about it.

If I had still been Christian when this crap went down, I wouldn't be now.

There is a universal balance. But trying to judge it by the standards of Western society is futile and pointless.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>The man behind the knife committed suicide in his jail cell, escaping
>any form of justice I recognize.

Which would be? Lifelong imprisonment? The death penalty imposed by others instead of by himself? Simple acknowledgement that he was wrong by a mass population? He escaped vengeance, but would anything other than the undoing of his actions really have felt like justice?

>Nobody is inherently good or evil.

I concur wholeheartedly, and I don't believe I said otherwise. Good and evil are choices, and we all have urges within us that lead towards both paths. As another way of seeing it: Everybody is inherently good and evil, and which inherent trait we heed is a conscious choice.

>Sometimes shit happens. It can happen to anyone, at any time. And
>there is nothing anyone can do about it.

There's always something that can be done about it. If there's nothing that can be done to change the situation, then you still choose how you deal with it and how you handle it. Our lives aren't predestined: we're not a group of Billy Pilgrim clones that just sort of have good and bad things happen to us. We don't control everything, but we do control ourselves, and that is worth a lot.

>"Good" and "evil" do not exist as such.

I disagree. Good and evil do most certainly exist, though not as starkly as religions such as Christianity and Islam might paint them. There is a right and a wrong thing to do in most every situation - the problem is that there is no hard and fast set of rules that can be laid down to govern all the shades of grey that come in. Rarely is it possible to choose the absolutely good or absolutely evil.

Regardless, I can understand why you feel the way you feel at the moment, and hope you didn't take offense. Were our positions reversed, I might well feel the same, and it's hardly beyond the realm of possibility that I'm totally wrong. All I know is that in every experience I've had - including the ones that have been seemingly random, painful, and wrong - haven't shaken my faith. It's hardly a scientific process, but if it was, it wouldn't exactly be faith.
-Eliot "Now let's get back to arguing about DJ Croft" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>>The man behind the knife committed suicide in his jail cell, escaping
>>any form of justice I recognize.
>
>Which would be? Lifelong imprisonment

Yes, actually, that would be what I would have preferred. I would have liked for him to spend the next sixty or seventy years living out a hollow, monotonous, empty life, knowing that it was because of one selfish, cowardly act. However, the death penalty exists in North Carolina, and that's probably what he would have gotten. And, to be honest, I wouldn't have been any more satisfied with it than what did happen.

>There's always something that can be done about it. If there's
>nothing that can be done to change the situation, then you still
>choose how you deal with it and how you handle it.

You can't see the bad stuff coming, most of the time. Sometimes we try to tell ourselves that there was something we could have done, or maybe not have done, to change what happened, but a harsh examination reveals that there was nothing I or anyone else I know could have done -- more importantly, would have known to do -- to change what that man chose to do. And I do not blame God or the universe for what happened; I place responsibility and blame squarely on the shoulders of Richard Charles Watson.

> Our lives aren't
>predestined: we're not a group of Billy Pilgrim clones that just sort
>of have good and bad things happen to us. We don't control
>everything, but we do control ourselves, and that is worth a lot.

My experiences have led me to conclude that there is a fate, a predestiny, of a sort, but that free will does exist. How much choice we have... it's summed up best by a couple of quotes:

"Sometimes we have a choice. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all." from Sandman

"You cannot change your fate. You can, however, rise to meet it." from Princess Mononoke

>All I know is that in every
>experience I've had - including the ones that have been seemingly
>random, painful, and wrong - haven't shaken my faith. It's hardly a
>scientific process, but if it was, it wouldn't exactly be faith.

Ironically, as cynical as I am, I do believe that the human race has the potential, in and of itself, to achieve a utopia, to create a paradise on Earth. Last year, around Beltane, I received a forwarded story about a vision of a future where that paradise had come to exist, through things like education, compassion, and caring, driving out the ignorance, apathy, and greed that are the root of most of the ills in this world. I rather liked it, so I cleaned out the >'s and the headers and reformatted it and sent it out to a number of friends. When my roommate, a devout American Baptist (the relatively liberal Baptists, as opposed to the fundamentalist, absolutist Southern Baptists), read it, she said that she couldn't agree with it.

Why? Because Christianity teaches that the only way to achieve grace, to create that kind of paradise on Earth, is through Jesus Christ. In my interpretation, by giving up faith in one's own inherent ability to make the right moral choices, and allowing the Church to dictate morality instead. In that moment, I had a complete and clear understanding of why I walked away from Christianity. Because, even now, I do believe that, underneath it all, everyone has, in and of themselves, the potential for pure goodness, for absolute selflessness and caring.

I revile Microsoft and all the tactics the people who run it have used over the years for nothing but profit and control; Microsoft's dominance of the desktop computing industry has held back the development of desktop computing more than all other conceivable factors combined, and as someone who uses computers both for business and pleasure on a daily basis, I understand exactly the ramifications of this. But I also know that Bill Gates brings his children to work with him, and he has a play area in his office, and he and his wife spend much of their day playing with their children.

Even Emperor Palpatine, the very definition of corruption and darkness, had as his goal the creation of order in the galaxy, an ending of random death and piracy and the like. But he chose the wrong path: the path of the Sith, the path of fear and tyranny, and he allowed himself to be ultimately consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. Even Vader, who was every bit as corrupted as Darth Sidious, chose good over evil. There's always many sides to every conflict, and I believe that nobody in the real world consciously chooses what they believe is true evil; even Timothy McVeigh or Adolf Hitler saw themselves as blessed, or heroes. But they were blinded by ignorance, apathy, and avarice. Timothy McVeigh saw the people in that Oklahoma building as numbers, collateral damage at most. Adolf Hitler didn't even see those the Nazis persecuted as people. Ultimately, evil happens when you start treating people as objects, numbers, at not people.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Yes, actually, that would be what I would have preferred.

Answers my question, then. I don't know if I would feel the same in the situation, but if that would have satisfied your desire for justice, yes, in a sense, he escaped justice.

>You can't see the bad stuff coming, most of the time. Sometimes we
>try to tell ourselves that there was something we could have done, or
>maybe not have done, to change what happened, but a harsh examination
>reveals that there was nothing I or anyone else I know could
>have done -- more importantly, would have known to do -- to change
>what that man chose to do.

No, there's not a thing in the world that you could do to change what happened. If that's what I implied, then I apologize, because that was most certainly not the message that I was trying to convey. All that you can control, in this situation, is yourself - how you let this affect you, how you allow yourself to cope, how much anger or sadness or numbness you allow yourself to feel. And that does count for a lot.

>"You cannot change your fate. You can, however, rise to meet it."
>from Princess Mononoke

By rising to meet your fate, though, you unavoidably change the way the fate that will greet you in the future. In context, the quote did not mean that Ashitaka had only one course of action open to him: it meant that he had been dealt a hand that he could not change, and it was up to him how he chose to continue (and, presumably, end) his life.

There was a massive crisis in my own life in April, one that I'm still not really talking about, one that has only been mentioned very briefly in a few places, one that shook me down to the core of my being. It was during that crisis that I first saw Mononoke Hime, and I clung to that exact quote as my mantra for the rest of my month. I could most certainly not change the situation, that was clear. But my options were to allow it to destroy me, or to rise up and refuse to be beaten, to stand up and be strong even when all I really felt like doing was lying down and giving up. I chose not to give up, and that was the one thing - the only thing - that allowed me to survive through the end of it, that allowed me to move on with my life.

>Why? Because Christianity teaches that the only way to achieve grace,
>to create that kind of paradise on Earth, is through Jesus Christ. In
>my interpretation, by giving up faith in one's own inherent ability to
>make the right moral choices, and allowing the Church to dictate
>morality instead. In that moment, I had a complete and clear
>understanding of why I walked away from Christianity. Because, even
>now, I do believe that, underneath it all, everyone
>has, in and of themselves, the potential for pure goodness, for
>absolute selflessness and caring.

Oddly enough, that's what I think Jesus taught... but the Church does not see things that way, and never will. I've not been a practicing Christian since I was five, and every brush I've had with the church since then has only strengthened my belief that while there is a good portion of the Christian orthodox that believes precisely that - that people are capable of making their own moral choices, that human beings are basically good, and that religion should provide moral suggestions rather than absolutes - the majority is never going to believe in anything but lockstep dogma. I've had no urge to go back to that persuasion.

I've found much the same with every major religion, for that matter. Part of the reason why I've stayed independent of other more fringe religions such as Wicca. My final conclusion has been that I can figure out what I believe without the aid of a specific religion - it may not exactly be devout, but it suits my needs.
-Eliot "At least the topic's lost some of its earlier venom" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>>"You cannot change your fate. You can, however, rise to meet it."
>>from Princess Mononoke
>
>By rising to meet your fate, though, you unavoidably change the way
>the fate that will greet you in the future. In context, the quote did
>not mean that Ashitaka had only one course of action open to him: it
>meant that he had been dealt a hand that he could not change, and it
>was up to him how he chose to continue (and, presumably, end) his
>life.

That's what I mean, and that's why I added the quote from Sandman.

Ashitaka had a choice. He could choose to leave the village and lie down and die from the wound, let the taint turn him into a demon until he self-destructed. Or he could try to find the root of the damage and do what he could to heal it.

He had no choice but to defend the villagers from the raging boar-demon -- a choice that was made for him, by virtue of his nature and position. When the demon's taint touched him, he had no choice about leaving the village -- this time he didn't even have a choice. What he did beyond that, though, was his choice.

>Oddly enough, that's what I think Jesus taught... but the
>Church does not see things that way, and never will.

Jesus of Nazareth, if he did exist (and there's a degree of doubt about that), taught peace and tolerance, not dogma and helplessness. The Church that came from Paul's proselytization became an organization focused on politics and control, not spirituality, and every denomination since then has come from that common heritage.

>My final conclusion has been that I can
>figure out what I believe without the aid of a specific religion - it
>may not exactly be devout, but it suits my needs.

Most pagans would agree with you, including most solitary Wiccans. After several years of being involved in mature, intelligent pagan communities (as opposed to trendy, fluffy-bunny types), I've come to the conclusion that one of the chief things that draws people to paganism is the need for self-determination. As a general rule, pagans don't like having the Truth handed to them, and prefer to figure out things for themselves. Of course, I've also met nominal Christians and Jews who were also of that thought process, so pagans hardly have a monopoly.

Any Discordians want to chime in on this one?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>He had no choice but to defend the villagers from the raging
>boar-demon -- a choice that was made for him, by virtue of his nature
>and position.

But he did still have a choice. He could have just as easily ignored the demon, let it ravage the village and have run to save himself. It would be a cowardly, immoral choice, one that he certainly wouldn't make - but it was available to him.

>When the demon's taint touched him, he had no choice
>about leaving the village -- this time he didn't even have a choice.

He did. He chose to go along peacefully, to not fight the village's decree. It would certainly have been possible (although out of character) for him to refuse to leave, and while he would have been either driven out or killed eventually, it was his choice to leave without further protest.

Even in the situations where choices were made for him, he had multiple choices at his disposal - there was simply only one choice that was morally right, and one choice that he would have reasonably made.

>Most pagans would agree with you, including most solitary Wiccans.
>After several years of being involved in mature, intelligent pagan
>communities (as opposed to trendy, fluffy-bunny types), I've come to
>the conclusion that one of the chief things that draws people to
>paganism is the need for self-determination. As a general rule,
>pagans don't like having the Truth handed to them, and prefer to
>figure out things for themselves. Of course, I've also met nominal
>Christians and Jews who were also of that thought process, so pagans
>hardly have a monopoly.

Different than most of the pagans I've dealt with - those that I've met have seemed to be the exact same thing as the Christian church, just pushing a different truth and smaller. Then again, I think that any truly enlightened person, whatever their denomination, wouldn't see any point of forcing someone into belief, so I have no trouble believing that you may have run into some less grating proponents of the religion. I've got nothing against paganism, I've just not had good experiences with it, and I personally don't see much there for me. (I feel pretty much the same about Christianity... the Christian Church is the organization that I have something against.)
-Eliot "I've drawn at least some inspiration from the Church of God the Utterly Indifferent" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>>He had no choice but to defend the villagers from the raging
>>boar-demon -- a choice that was made for him, by virtue of his nature
>>and position.
>
>But he did still have a choice. He could have just as easily ignored
>the demon, let it ravage the village and have run to save himself. It
>would be a cowardly, immoral choice, one that he certainly wouldn't
>make - but it was available to him.

But not one that he could make, because of who he was as a person, and because of his position in the village.

>Even in the situations where choices were made for him, he had
>multiple choices at his disposal - there was simply only one choice
>that was morally right, and one choice that he would have reasonably
>made.

He wouldn't even consider those choices, and would probably ignore their existence. He was someone who, quite simply, wanted to understand what happened to the boar, and wanted to keep it from happening again -- and, if at all possible, heal the scar. His position, desires, and personal belief system and ethics meant that, in most situations, he had little choice but to do what he did. He respected the villagers, understood the good that was going on there, but did not hesitate to try to prevent them from doing greater wrongs.

One of the things I love about Mononoke Hime is that there are no clear-cut heroes or villains. Everyone has an agenda, to some degree, and will do what they have to in order to reach it, but they do not do so out of Evil.

>Different than most of the pagans I've dealt with - those that I've
>met have seemed to be the exact same thing as the Christian church,
>just pushing a different truth and smaller.

Then you've met truly poor representatives of Wicca, as one of Wicca's fundamental ideas is that proselytization is not practiced.

It's not that I've never had experiences with those types of pagans. But I've had more positive experiences than negative ones. I've met many Christians who were open-minded, tolerant, and quite enlightened, too, but I simply can't agree with the fundamental tenets of the Christian Church.

>the religion.

Minor detail: paganism is a referential name for a whole host of earth/nature-based religions, faiths, and creeds, not a single religion. Confusing a Wiccan with an Asatruar (who generally prefer "heathen" to "pagan" and "heathenry" to "paganism" anyway) is comparable to confusing a Muslim with an Eastern Orthodox Christian; pagan and heathen faiths cover a very broad spectrum.

An example: One of the primary tenets of Wicca is to harm none. Asatru, while not aggressively bloodthirsty, is a reconstruction of the old Norse religion(s), and thus has no such restriction. There's an amusing story I heard once, no idea if it's true or not, about a group of KKK people who, having presumably run out of blacks or Jews or what-have-you to pick on, decided to go crash a pagan gathering, thinking they would be defenseless fluffy-bunny types. Well, they crashed an Asatru celebration, meaning that when they barged into the clearing in their white robes and carrying the cross, almost everyone there pulled out a weapon, such as battle-axes, swords, guns... and somewhere in the back, one of the Asatruars said, "If that cross goes up, you're going on it."

I find myself grinning whenever I think of this anecdote.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>But not one that he could make, because of who he was as a person, and
>because of his position in the village.

There's a quote from somewhere (I can't remember from where) to the general effect of: "No man, if he is to call himself a man, could make that decision." The point isn't that there was ever a question of whether or not Ashitaka would stop the boar - the point is he did have that choice, and he was certainly aware of it. It was understood immediately, discarded just as quickly - but still there.

>Then you've met truly poor representatives of Wicca, as one of Wicca's
>fundamental ideas is that proselytization is not practiced.

Most of the representatives I've met are truly poor representatives of pretty much anything, but that's beside the point. About the only Wiccan I've met who's been a notable exception to the rule is Elaine, probably my closest friend next to Erin. We've only discussed religion a few times, but I've never known her to be anything but unfailingly tolerant and wholeheartedly accepting. She's one of the few reasons that I'm actively able to separate the ideas of Wicca from the poor experiences I've had with the participants.

>Minor detail: paganism is a referential name for a whole host of
>earth/nature-based religions, faiths, and creeds, not a single
>religion. Confusing a Wiccan with an Asatruar (who generally prefer
>"heathen" to "pagan" and "heathenry" to "paganism" anyway) is
>comparable to confusing a Muslim with an Eastern Orthodox Christian;
>pagan and heathen faiths cover a very broad spectrum.

Gomen nasai - I should have at least put religion in quotes, more accurately said "group of religions". Trying to finish writing a story and talk about religion at the same time, apparently, does not work very well. I will make a note of this.
-Eliot "You seem less disgusted, so I'll go with you" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>There's a quote from somewhere (I can't remember from where) to the
>general effect of: "No man, if he is to call himself a man, could make
>that decision." The point isn't that there was ever a question of
>whether or not Ashitaka would stop the boar - the point is he did have
>that choice, and he was certainly aware of it. It was understood
>immediately, discarded just as quickly - but still there.

Which is the essence of heroism. I should retract my earlier statement about the film having no clearly defined heroes or villains; while I doubt Ashitaka would claim or even accept the title of hero, he does behave in a heroic fashion, and he always strives to do the Right Thing. To be fair, all the other characters are striving to do the Right Thing, but -- and this is the whole point of "to see with eyes unclouded" -- Ashitaka is the only one who doesn't define Right Thing by his own special interests. San places the interests of Moro and the other forest-gods above the interests of the villagers, to the point of wiping out the villagers to protect the forest; the same goes, of course, for the wolves and boars and their gods. Lady Eboshi protects and cares for the villagers, and if that means the deaths of the forest gods, then so be it. Jiko Bou represents the special interests of his own people, and of the Emperor. Ashitaka believes that a balance can be struck, and that lives need not be lost, and his every action is a reflection of that belief.

>She's one of the
>few reasons that I'm actively able to separate the ideas of Wicca from
>the poor experiences I've had with the participants.

Well, I'm glad that you know someone who demonstrates what Wicca is actually about. Having been a pagan living in Connecticut, though, I know about the kind of crap and politics that goes on between the different groups there; I was fortunate enough to come into contact with a group that didn't get involved in that kind of messy stuff.

>Gomen nasai - I should have at least put religion in quotes,
>more accurately said "group of religions". Trying to finish writing a
>story and talk about religion at the same time, apparently, does not
>work very well. I will make a note of this.

Heh. I'm deep in the undefinied middle of a rather long story, knowing where the end is and aiming for it but not quite sure where the next shot goes.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>>But he did still have a choice. He could have just as easily ignored
>>the demon, let it ravage the village and have run to save himself. It
>>would be a cowardly, immoral choice, one that he certainly wouldn't
>>make - but it was available to him.
>
>But not one that he could make, because of who he was as a person, and
>because of his position in the village.
>
<jumping into a long thread>

IMHO, there are always choices (or as I refer to them, options) - even the ones that you just won't touch. Sometimes there's only one option that I'll even consider, but it doesn't remove the existance of the others from the overall picture... just my framing of it.

>An example: One of the primary tenets of Wicca is to harm none.
>Asatru, while not aggressively bloodthirsty, is a reconstruction of
>the old Norse religion(s), and thus has no such restriction. There's
>an amusing story I heard once, no idea if it's true or not, about a
>group of KKK people who, having presumably run out of blacks or Jews
>or what-have-you to pick on, decided to go crash a pagan gathering,
>thinking they would be defenseless fluffy-bunny types. Well, they
>crashed an Asatru celebration, meaning that when they barged into the
>clearing in their white robes and carrying the cross, almost everyone
>there pulled out a weapon, such as battle-axes, swords, guns... and
>somewhere in the back, one of the Asatruars said, "If that cross goes
>up, you're going on it."
>
I have heard this from someone that I trust, who claims to have heard it from someone involved... From what I remember, there were no guns (at least on the Asatruar side), but a large number of pole-arms and other large edged weapons (most of them the individuals' personal religious weapons). And the quote I heard was "If that cross goes up, someone's gonna get nailed to it."... :)

And yes, it is a rather amusing story... (ping me privately if you want to hear more fun anecdoes like the above one - mostly SCAdian/Marklander in origin...)

Offsides

#include <anecdotes.h>

>I have heard this from someone that I trust, who claims to have heard
>it from someone involved... From what I remember, there were no guns
>(at least on the Asatruar side), but a large number of pole-arms and
>other large edged weapons (most of them the individuals'
>personal religious weapons). And the quote I heard was "If that cross
>goes up, someone's gonna get nailed to it."... :)

The version I heard did mention specifically that there was a firearm or two held by one or two of the Asatruars, but such things tend to grow in the telling. And I think that quote is the right one, as I was pulling what I wrote out of dusty memory after hearing the story a couple of years ago.

Anyway, if it's true, I find it quite funny :).

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Several years ago, I was involved in a discussion on a religious point (I vaguely remember it being about whether non-Christians can reach Heaven (many followers of other religion would be rather disappointed if they did, I think)). The girl taking the view that they could not pulled out a biblical basis for her views.
The counter I made came to: the Bible was written by men and as such is inherently an imperfect translation of God's will, since everyone is biased in someway, and those who wrote and edited it were generally concerned with ensuring a conformity to a particular viewpoint. On the other hand God gave us all consicences and free will. I believe, based on my conscience, that anyone who follows certain ideals (a degree of selflessness, etc) has a beter than even chance of receiving a reward in whatever afterlife they reach. I may be wrong. But that is between myself and God. I have no right to impose those beliefs on others.

We agreed to disagree.

>>I have heard this from someone that I trust, who claims to have heard
>>it from someone involved... From what I remember, there were no guns
>>(at least on the Asatruar side), but a large number of pole-arms and
>>other large edged weapons (most of them the individuals'
>>personal religious weapons). And the quote I heard was "If that cross
>>goes up, someone's gonna get nailed to it."... :)
>
>The version I heard did mention specifically that there was a firearm
>or two held by one or two of the Asatruars, but such things tend to
>grow in the telling. And I think that quote is the right one, as I
>was pulling what I wrote out of dusty memory after hearing the story a
>couple of years ago.
>
Reminds me of a story I read about in a novel (as in, a character told it within the novel. I believe it is historical).
In India, during the late 19th century, several prominent Indians went to the British Governor and complained that his soldiers were interfereing with their religious beliefs by preventing their following the custom of suttee (bring a widow on her husband's funeral pyre).
The governor considered this and told them, "Your people have the custom of suttee. We British also have a custom: that men who burn women alive are hung by the neck until they are dead. Build your pyres. Beside them my soldiers will build a gallows. Then you may follow your custom. And we shall follow ours."

My strongest respect goes to any rule that avoids the trap of 'thou shalt not...' and instead states 'if this is done, then this shall follow'. i.e. places the responsibility for the decision and it's consequences upon the culprit. They know what the results will be and are free to make a choice.

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'

>Several years ago, I was involved in a discussion on a religious point
>(I vaguely remember it being about whether non-Christians can reach
>Heaven (many followers of other religion would be rather disappointed
>if they did, I think)). The girl taking the view that they could not
>pulled out a biblical basis for her views.

I've always thought that that was a rule that HAD to be invented by humans, even if you believe that the Bible was divinely inspired.

Christians believe in a loving God, right? And a just God, ne? Well, why is it that someone who spends his or her entire life a committed atheist or apathetic agnostic but who does nothing but good works in the world would be sentenced to hell, according to most of the more rabid fundamentalists, whilst someone who does nothing but evil in his entire life but, on his deathbed, repents and accepts Christ as his personal savior &c. would go to heaven? That doesn't sound like a just, loving God. That sounds like a petty, narcissistic God. Or maybe that's just me.

One of my rather devout Christian friends that atheists and others who believe that there's no afterlife get exactly that: nothing. Quite honestly, I can't bring myself to believe that, either. Again, it just seems like the kind of dictum a petty and narcissistic God would make.

I guess that if the Christian Heaven is what's waiting on the other side, I tend to believe that most people would end up there. My aunt wrote a short piece about heaven and hell which I found really telling.

>My strongest respect goes to any rule that avoids the trap of 'thou
>shalt not...' and instead states 'if this is done, then this shall
>follow'. i.e. places the responsibility for the decision and it's
>consequences upon the culprit. They know what the results will be and
>are free to make a choice.

Have you (or anyone else here, for that matter) read the Dragon Prince/Dragon Star novels by Melanie Rawn? One of the more enlightened characters makes the same comment about the legal systems in place in the various and sundry nations on that series' world, how they just define what's illegal and place no specific consequences or even guidelines, and maintains that a mature legal system will provide specific penalties for a given offense, so that if someone breaks the law, they made a choice knowing exactly what the consequences would be. Essentially what you've just said.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Christians believe in a loving God, right? And a just God, ne? Well,
>why is it that someone who spends his or her entire life a committed
>atheist or apathetic agnostic but who does nothing but good works in
>the world would be sentenced to hell, according to most of the more
>rabid fundamentalists, whilst someone who does nothing but evil in his
>entire life but, on his deathbed, repents and accepts Christ as his
>personal savior &c. would go to heaven? That doesn't sound like a
>just, loving God. That sounds like a petty, narcissistic God. Or
>maybe that's just me.

<barging in>

Well, I happen to have a friend who's christian (although I tend to avoid anyone who's adamant about religion) and we had this argument before. Only difference is that I ended the argument by saying "Well, If God is cruel and egocentrical enough to judge and condem me only because I didn't believe in him even though none of my actions in life were sinful... then I'll be in the first ranks alongside Lucifer to fight him"

Actually I think it's her look of horror that ended the argument >< .

And I usually refer to myself as atheist, it's not true but it beats having to explain "my own little religion" (to quote) and saying you're atheist tends to quiet down questions or comments on the subject, I like it.

When the need arise to explain my belief though, I found it easier to write it down as a poem, and so I did. Don't click this unless you're bored/interested/undead/confused AND you like reading poetry AND have Micro$oft Word :p there.
http://members.xoom.com/toryama/sup/Karma.doc

</barging in>

>Well, I happen to have a friend who's christian (although I tend to
>avoid anyone who's adamant about religion) and we had this argument
>before. Only difference is that I ended the argument by saying "Well,
>If God is cruel and egocentrical enough to judge and condem me only
>because I didn't believe in him even though none of my actions in life
>were sinful... then I'll be in the first ranks alongside Lucifer to
>fight him"
>
>Actually I think it's her look of horror that ended the argument >< .

"There is... no faith so pure as that which always doubts, no wisdom so deep as that which always questions. Were this not true, I would reject God. I would spit in His face and join the legions of Lucifer, for the archangel would be right to rebel. I love God because I am His creation. <i>I am not his creature.</i>"
Michael of Macedonia, Eric Flint's 'An Oblique Approach'

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'

>Have you (or anyone else here, for that matter) read the Dragon
>Prince/Dragon Star novels by Melanie Rawn? One of the more
>enlightened characters makes the same comment about the legal systems
>in place in the various and sundry nations on that series' world, how
>they just define what's illegal and place no specific consequences or
>even guidelines, and maintains that a mature legal system will provide
>specific penalties for a given offense, so that if someone breaks the
>law, they made a choice knowing exactly what the consequences would
>be. Essentially what you've just said.
>

Ouch! Busted... that's exactly the book where I first encountered the concept

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'

>Different than most of the pagans I've dealt with - those that I've
>met have seemed to be the exact same thing as the Christian church,
>just pushing a different truth and smaller. Then again, I think that
>any truly enlightened person, whatever their denomination, wouldn't
>see any point of forcing someone into belief, so I have no trouble
>believing that you may have run into some less grating proponents of
>the religion. I've got nothing against paganism, I've just not had
>good experiences with it, and I personally don't see much there for
>me. (I feel pretty much the same about Christianity... the
>Christian Church is the organization that I have something
>against.)

The discussion has, at this point, fairly well passed this point, but I'm going to chime in anyway :)

I label myself as pagan, to just about everyone, by default. When I start getting more specific, I label it as "My own (private|little) religion" with the description of, "it's exactly that...mine. If you want to follow it, great...if not? that's great too."

Most of the other pagans I've met are like this as well...some aren't...
I hang out with the former, and ignore the latter...

I've found, in most cases (but not all) that followers of large religiong (Christianity, Judiasm, Muslim) are sheep...they don't think or question their religion...they just do as their told. Again, this is most that I've met, and by NO means everybody. The same, I suppose, could be said for some pagans, and the opposite for some followers of Judeo-Christian Religions.

One can only speak in generalities when dealing with groups that large, really. The generalities in these cases have to do with what (approximate) percentage of any given group questions their religion, to determine how it affetcs them personally, and what percentage get their religion spoon-fed to them.

Please, no one be offended...I'll say it again, these are generalities, and and given person is likely to completely defy them...they are also only my own, personal, experiences...but I thought I'd share them
who knows, maybe they'll help...

>After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a
>trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that
>much.

*shrug* I like both. I've met many people who like both. The two don't have to be exclusive.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>After reading the messages on this board, I have to say I noticed a
>trend; The people who really like NXE tend to not really like NGE that
>much. Maybe they see something in NXE that was missing in the
>original?

Possibly. I can't say... I'm in the odd position of having read NXE first, and *then* getting into NGE because of it. My wife and I are following NGE as it comes out on DVD, and while I know a fair amount of what's going to happen due to fanfics and lapsed spoiler spaces and the like, I'm still enjoying it. So is she.

And at the same time as we're watching NGE, I'm reading NXE to my wife -- with the explicit caveat that it's a completely different universe with a momentary tangental congruence with NGE. She seems to be enjoying both on their separate merits, as am I.

<shrug>

-- Bob

Interesting.
I saw all the EVA series before reading NXE and subsequently read parts 1 to 5 of the manga and watched End of Evangelion. I tend to break the whole thing into seperate stories:

NGE Ep1-24: rather dark giant robot story that ends with just about everyone tormented and/or trashed but a narrow victory for the human race. Although to quote Bobby Lane "our species doesn't deserve to survive". Dark towards the end but I'd watch it again (and will when I can afford to buy it as well as stuff I ain't seen yet). Shinji is what I'm told is a very Japanese type of hero in that he beats the bad guys (or at least some of them) by overcoming his own shortcomings.

NXE: giant robot story with a similar look to NGE but a more upbeat plot and lots of other elements. Plus more informative about the big picture. (DJ is an pulp hero to my mind, like Flash Gordon or Kimball Kinnison). (But hey, I like Dual! which also has a similar look but more closely resembles the Evangelion Flash bonus theatre, so I'm obviously a little crazy.)

NGE 25, 26 & EoE: What was Anno smoking when he did these and why ain't he sharing? Headfuck territory and I'm not too bothered except that admittedly the episodes make much more success after having watched the movie. When I watched 25 I had to read the video box to find out 3rd impact had happened, so I could see this as an OVA running EoE pt 1, pt 2, Ep 25 & Ep 26. Nuts, but if someone wants to watch this sort of thing...

The NGE manga, which looks okay so far and does seem to have a distinct feel to it so far. I'm looking forward to part 6 coming out this summer.

drakensisthered