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Subject: "Wait... what?" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences Symphony of the Sword / The Order of the Rose Topic #11
Reading Topic #11
Apostate_Soul
Member since Aug-22-08
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Jun-01-06, 09:37 PM (EST)
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"Wait... what?"
 
   I've been re-reading the Symphony, and something suddenly struck me. And I quote...

"...Corwin had carefully maneuvered his opponent
onto Kenmore Boulevard, a broad, flat street which, from here, ran as
straight as an arrow to the shore of Lake Daniels. There was nothing
between Big O's helmet and the horizon..."

...there's a Horizon inside a Dyson Sphere?

Just a little nitpicking, I suppose but it had me scratching my head for a bit.

____________________

"It's difficult keeping up with the cross-continuity, but I think Cosmouse just gave The Saturnian Scraphunter his Ultimate Pacifier to use against Galactapuss..."


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Wait... what? Gryphonadmin Jun-01-06 1
  RE: Wait... what? eriktown Jun-02-06 2
  RE: Wait... what? simonz Jun-03-06 3
     RE: Wait... what? Seeker Jun-03-06 4
         RE: Wait... what? Croaker Jun-05-06 5
             RE: Wait... what? Sofaspud Jun-05-06 6
             RE: Wait... what? BLUE Jun-05-06 8
                 RE: Wait... what? MoonEyes Jun-06-06 9
                     RE: Wait... what? BLUE Jun-06-06 16
                 RE: Wait... what? Sofaspud Jun-06-06 10
                     RE: Wait... what? dstar Jun-06-06 11
                         RE: Wait... what? Sofaspud Jun-06-06 12
                             RE: Wait... what? StClair Jun-06-06 13
                                 RE: Wait... what? Sofaspud Jun-06-06 14
                             RE: Wait... what? BLUE Jun-06-06 15
                                 RE: Wait... what? Mister Fnord Jun-06-06 17
                                     RE: Wait... what? Sofaspud Jun-06-06 19
                                     RE: Wait... what? BLUE Jun-06-06 20
                                         RE: Wait... what? dstar Jun-07-06 21
                                             RE: Wait... what? Gryphonadmin Jun-07-06 22
                                             RE: Wait... what? BLUE Jun-07-06 23
                                             RE: Wait... what? Gryphonadmin Jun-07-06 25
                                             RE: Wait... what? BLUE Jun-07-06 27
                                             RE: Wait... what? Pasha Jun-07-06 26
                                 RE: Wait... what? Sofaspud Jun-06-06 18
  You're forgetting a key fact: BZArchermoderator Jun-05-06 7
     RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Moonsword Jun-07-06 24
         RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Star Ranger4 Jun-08-06 28
             RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Sofaspud Jun-08-06 29
                 RE: You're forgetting a key fact: mdg1 Jun-08-06 30
                 RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Moonsword Jun-08-06 33
             RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Moonsword Jun-08-06 32
                 RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Gryphonadmin Jun-08-06 34
                     RE: You're forgetting a key fact: Moonsword Jun-09-06 36
  RE: Wait... what? BlackAeronaut Jun-08-06 31
  RE: Wait... what? Apostate_Soul Jun-09-06 35
     RE: Wait... what? Druid Jun-09-06 37

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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-01-06, 10:09 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #0
 
   >...there's a Horizon inside a Dyson Sphere?

There is on the Avalon pseudocontinent.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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eriktown
Member since Jan-28-06
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Jun-02-06, 02:37 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #0
 
  
>...there's a Horizon inside a Dyson Sphere?

It's a kind of magic.

Seriously, we've been over this one a hundred times.


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simonz
Member since Jun-23-04
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Jun-03-06, 10:08 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-06 AT 10:13 AM (EDT)
 
-edited because it's too early for me to remember the difference between the formulas for area and circumference-
To put it in perspective, if the Sphere is 1AU (can't remember exactly if it is or not) away from Zeta Cygni, then it's circumference is roughly 300 million km. Comparatively, the earth's diameter is 12,756.3 km. The curvature would be so gradual that on the inside of the sphere you probably wouldn't be able to see far enough to see where it starts curving up anyways, especially at night, not to mention all the magic that Cianbro worked there.


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Seeker
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Jun-03-06, 04:14 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #3
 
   Add to that the fact that Avalon is a _pseudo_continent. I seem to remember comments in-story about how the terrain out in the Badlands slowly slopes down until it meets the surface of the sphere itself.

If that structure averages out to be dome-shaped, then there is an actual horizon. Beyond that, you'll eventually reach sphere surface, but that's going to take a real, real, _real_ long time.


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Croaker
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Jun-05-06, 05:00 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #4
 
   >Add to that the fact that Avalon is a _pseudo_continent. I seem to
>remember comments in-story about how the terrain out in the Badlands
>slowly slopes down until it meets the surface of the sphere itself.
>
>If that structure averages out to be dome-shaped, then there is an
>actual horizon. Beyond that, you'll eventually reach sphere surface,
>but that's going to take a real, real, _real_ long time.

Yep.

Take a sphere approximately one AU in diameter.

On the inside of that, a hemispherical dome roughly 12,000 kilometers across, say, just wouldn't even be much of a pimple. Plenty of space to drop a pseudo-content, a few oceans, and such, and have it have a nice horizon.

--
Croaker
RCW #mc2
"When in doubt, shoot something. Preferably the enemy."


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
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Jun-05-06, 05:43 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #5
 
   I seem to recall a quote about Corwin (I think?) "manuevering around the pylon" into city airspace.

I don't know if there's ever been a canonical, "This Is How It Is, Folks" post, but to me, that fragment, coupled with other hints, kinda makes me think of New Avalon as being a platter suspended from a pole, and the 'magic' that Cianbro wrought would be the manner in which they made the sun appear to be above instead of completely out of sight.

This would explain the shipyard complex appearing to be the night sky, as well as the horizon issue.

Of course, I could be completely off base here. There's more than enough room in the sphere to have them living on the inner surface of the shell and the shipyard complex to be between them and Zeta Cygni.

Or a bunch of other possibilities. But I like the idea of a pylon supporting a psuedocontinent, if for no other reason than it'd make sense from a logistical standpoint. Cargo could dock outside and be transported by elevator through the pylon.

Hmm... I'm remembering frieght being mentioned in-story, though, as landing in the city proper...

--sofaspud
--


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
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Jun-05-06, 08:16 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #5
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 05:10 PM (EDT)
 
>Take a sphere approximately one AU in diameter.
>
>On the inside of that, a hemispherical dome roughly 12,000 kilometers
>across, say, just wouldn't even be much of a pimple. Plenty of space
>to drop a pseudo-content, a few oceans, and such, and have it have a
>nice horizon.

I doubt that they would engineer it to be a half-dome; too much wasted space on the inside (not that a dyson sphere isn't a massively huge waste of space, at least for the first several millenia, until expansion really sets in...), and it would make it rather difficult to "expand" and connect to the next pseudo-continent that would eventually be constructed without a lot of divirting through the surface of the sphere itself.

I have thought of the pseudo-continent as rather flat, kind of like nebraska or the southwest, but on a grand scale. The actual inside circumference at 1AU would be 584 million miles, btw. Using some rough trig, if the (for purposes of the math, perfectly circular) pseudo-continent had a diameter of 12,000 km and was perfectly flat edge to edge (discounting mountains and such, just mean thickness) it would be about .54 km thick in the center. Bump that up to 2 km or so and give it a nice, gradual curve towards the inner surface of the sphere and you have a horizon, no problems, although one much flatter and more like the great plains that what someone from new england or the south would think of as a horizon. And it would be fairly easy for that scale of engineering to bring the next pseudocontinent up to it and create an ocean in between to get rid of the low spots when it is time to expand, and with the distances involved the transition should still look 'normal' to someone from a planet.

{On a tangent using these numbers (113 million square kilometeres, btw), and assuming that there is as much land proportionally on the pseudo-continent as there is on earth, it can probably support a half-billion to a billion sentients easily. (New Avalon is quoted as having a population of 20 million, most living quite comfortably). Probably a lot more, but that gets into environmental arguments, so lets use a billion. Easy to work with. As 1 degree of radius inside the sphere is something approaching three and a third trillion square miles or almost 9 trillion square kilometers (VERY rough math, don't shoot me for the fudge factors, please), that small section of the sphere could support almost 7.9 million times that population, or 7.9 million billion. 7.9 quadrillion? Even if I muffed the numbers somewhat, 6 to 7 quadrillion would still probably be reasonable. That's in a 1 degree by 1 degree section of the the Zeta Cygni sphere. Just something I was thinking of while cruching numbers.}

EDIT: got some of my labels crossed, all the math is done in miles, not km like I originally had, so had to redo a couple of numbers. Allows for even more people, actually. And it's double-checked this time.

And hell yes, it's granular detail, but I was almost a US Navy Nuke operator. We overthink things, its an occupational (and personal) trait.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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MoonEyes
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Jun-06-06, 05:19 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #8
 
   I suspect that you're reaching the 'You're examening this too closely' point. And at a high rate of speed, too.

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
394 posts
Jun-06-06, 05:12 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #9
 
   Probably approaching at superluminal speeds...but it took me about half an hour to figure it out, so it's not like it was a huge investment in time.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
257 posts
Jun-06-06, 01:03 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #8
 
   Oh duh. I forgot about the scale of this thing (again).

Heck, why bother with attaching the psuedocontinent to the sphere at all? There's enough space inside the sphere to let the continent orbit freely, with miniscule corrections as necessary. If set up correctly, it may even be inherently stable (like the Lagrange points).

The only issue I have is gravity. I dunno how much trust I would place in artificial gravity generators, and without knowing a bit more about the material used to construct the shell (and presumably, the 'bedrock' of the continent), I can't do the math to figure out how much of that is needed to produce a Earth-like gravitational field.

Heh. Theoretical engineering is fun.

--sofaspud
--


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dstar
Member since Oct-19-02
153 posts
Jun-06-06, 02:08 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #10
 
  
>The only issue I have is gravity. I dunno how much trust I would
>place in artificial gravity generators, and without knowing a bit more
>about the material used to construct the shell (and presumably, the
>'bedrock' of the continent), I can't do the math to figure out how
>much of that is needed to produce a Earth-like gravitational field.

If it's on the inside of the sphere? An infinite amount. Mass _above_ you on a sphere doesn't contribute either way to the gravitational pull -- only mass below you does.


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
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Jun-06-06, 02:55 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #11
 
   >If it's on the inside of the sphere? An infinite amount. Mass _above_
>you on a sphere doesn't contribute either way to the gravitational
>pull -- only mass below you does.

Your statement confuses me. Mass is mass - it exerts gravitational influence regardless of its relative position to you. Distance is the only factor.

Hmm... I think maybe you missed what I was saying. Picture the sphere. Now, inside it, place a psuedocontinent (PC), happily orbiting the star that lives at the center of the sphere (put it a safe distance away from the inner surface of the sphere, of course :). People live on the PC, with their feet pointing at the star (on the other side of the PC), and their heads at the inner surface of the sphere. Cianbro's magic accounts for the apparent location of the star to the inhabitants (could be done with mirrors, theoretically).

I assume the PC's foundation ('bedrock', if you will) is constructed of the same material as the sphere, simply because it would have been simple (!) to extrude/manufacture/transmogrify/arm-wave-into-existence a wee bit more (relatively speaking) of the same material as used to construct the sphere itself, while it was being built.

It seems to me (upon thinking about it) that the gravity problem is pretty much not a problem, *assuming* that the sphere material is incredibly dense (which is hinted at fairly often, if not outright stated). It should only require a layer that is moderately thicker than the sphere itself as the bedrock of the PC to form a suitably strong gravitational field. Give the foundation edges, akin to the mountain ranges at the edges of Niven's Ringworld, to keep air from spilling out, and you'd be all set.

--sofaspud
--


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StClair
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Jun-06-06, 03:35 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #12
 
   Inside a sphere, the net gravitational attraction sums to zero.


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
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Jun-06-06, 04:12 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #13
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 04:25 PM (EDT)
 
>Inside a sphere, the net gravitational attraction sums to zero.

I decided I was being snarky without meaning to. Let me try again.

The net gravitational attraction between the psuedocontinent (PC) and the sphere will equate to 0, since the PC is completely contained within the spherical shell.

The net gravitational attraction between the PC and Zeta Cygni (the star at the center of the sphere) will be some non-zero figure. I can't begin to guess at what it would be, but it would certainly be enough so that the PC would need (a) a support pylon to keep it from 'falling' into the star (which attaches to the sphere and thus makes them one mass for our purposes), or (b) some amount of orbital motion, much like the Earth orbits the sun and thus does not get burnt to a cinder after a few millenia.

Likewise, the net gravitational attraction between, say, J. Random New Avalonian and the PC will be some non-zero figure. Between JRNA and Zeta Cygni? Negligible - much like we don't particularly notice our gravitational attraction to good ol' Sol. Between JRNA and the sphere? Zero - they're inside the hollow sphere.

--sofaspud
--


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
394 posts
Jun-06-06, 04:56 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #12
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 05:16 PM (EDT)
 
>Hmm... I think maybe you missed what I was saying. Picture the
>sphere. Now, inside it, place a psuedocontinent (PC), happily
>orbiting the star that lives at the center of the sphere (put it a
>safe distance away from the inner surface of the sphere, of course :).
> People live on the PC, with their feet pointing at the star (on the
>other side of the PC), and their heads at the inner surface of the
>sphere. Cianbro's magic accounts for the apparent location of the
>star to the inhabitants (could be done with mirrors, theoretically).

Okay, but that's entirely missing the point of building (or creating)a dyson sphere in the first place. You build the sphere to give yourself the maximum amount of useable space possible, which would be on the inner surface of the sphere, not in orbit around the star or hanging inverted from the surface on a pylon.

If the pseudo continent was made up of as much mass as it would take to create it in my example above, plus the mass of the sphere itself, plus a minute amount of spin to the sphere, gravity should take care of itself pretty much. The gravity of the star exerting itself on all points of the sphere equally would keep it positioned; at 1 AU (93 million miles) the mass of the pseudo-continent and the mass of the sphere, and therefore the combined force of gravity from the two, will affect J Random much more than the gravity of the star due to proximity. The mass required to make a dyson sphere is truly enormous, and it's going to exert it's effects on people. Gravity pulls towards the center of mass, and the curve of the sphere is so shallow (1 degree of arc is over a million and a half miles) that over any distance that means anything to a New Avalonian, the center of mass is towards the surface of the sphere. Even if the pseudo-continent is a hundred times smaller than my figures, the sphere is still there, and it's not going away.

And if anyone remembers the episode of ST:TNG with Scotty and the Dyson Sphere, it was the inner surface of the sphere that was developed; maybe that doesn't apply here, but it's the most obvious choice.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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Mister Fnord
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Jun-06-06, 06:45 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #15
 
  
>If the pseudo continent was made up of as much mass as it would take
>to create it in my example above, plus the mass of the sphere itself,
>plus a minute amount of spin to the sphere, gravity should take care
>of itself pretty much. The gravity of the star exerting itself on all
>points of the sphere equally would keep it positioned; at 1 AU (93
>million miles) the mass of the pseudo-continent and the mass of the
>sphere, and therefore the combined force of gravity from the two, will
>affect J Random much more than the gravity of the star due to
>proximity. The mass required to make a dyson sphere is truly
>enormous, and it's going to exert it's effects on people. Gravity
>pulls towards the center of mass, and the curve of the sphere is so
>shallow (1 degree of arc is over a million and a half miles) that over
>any distance that means anything to a New Avalonian, the center of
>mass is towards the surface of the sphere. Even if the
>pseudo-continent is a hundred times smaller than my figures, the
>sphere is still there, and it's not going away.

I shouldn't get into something this pointlessly geeky, but dammit this needs correcting.

The center of mass and gravity for any point on the Sphere would be centered on - is supposed be centered on - Zeta Cygni. Anything attached to the inside of the sphere, including the shipyards, Avalon, the terraforming widgets and whatever other stuff Gryph feels like pulling out of his hat on any given day, are included in the total mass of the Sphere. The net gravitational effect is such that anything not firmly attached to the Sphere's inner surface is going to fall into the frigging star at the rate of however many meters/second Zeta Cygni exerts at one AU.

The reason that all the loose junk around New Avalon (like cars, people, buildings, the atmosphere, whatever) don't exhibit this behavior is because they've got handwavium gravity generators making sure that down faces towards the Sphere and not towards Zeta Cygni. Same basic principle as what keeps people from floating around on the Enterprise.

To sum up all this wandering gibberish: Gravity don't work the way you think it works.

--
Mr. Fnord, free fallin'


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Sofaspud
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Jun-06-06, 06:59 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #17
 
  
Which is why I was trying to come up with a way for it to actually work withOUT Handwavium (which is notoriously fickle and unstable :).

The free-floating continent idea, or pylon-supported continent, would both work, AND have the advantage of following the laws of gravity. Assuming you orient them correctly, of course.

And it's not pointlessly geeky, it's entertaining, dangit. :)

--sofaspud
--


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
394 posts
Jun-06-06, 07:25 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #17
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 09:41 PM (EDT)
 
>To sum up all this wandering gibberish: Gravity don't work the way
>you think it works.

>

I'm going to be an asshole now. {EDIT: Well, people will probably think I am one, anyway.}

I made a couple of assumptions about the sphere, and you're right, Zeta Cygni WOULD exert a pull. The sphere, however, WOULD also exert a pull. Maybe an extremely weak one, like Phobos or Deimos, such that without gravity generators you could jump too hard (assuming your muscles are used to 1g) or throw something and leave the surface and therefore fall under the effects of Zeta Cygni, but there is a stupid amount of mass in the sphere, and it would have some influence.

If you want to think about why this is so, look in our own back yard, or rather in our orbit. The moon is tidally locked with the earth, so that one face of it always faces earth. If what you said was true, anything on the earthward side of the moon would automatically fall towards earth, since earth has a stronger gravitational pull than the moon. Since this doesn't, in fact, happen, then the mass of the moon must be able to keep stuff firmly attached to the surface.

You were right, all mass centers on ZC. From the OUTSIDE. Beyond that is where conventional thought gets a little screwy, both because of the sheer scale and because conventional thought was never intended to study or explain a dyson sphere. From the inside, I believe what I said above applies; think of it as a huge tidally locked lunar surface. Mars' moon Deimos, being shaped irregularly, is 9 miles at it's largest 'diameter' and 7 at its smaller, yet it generates enough gravity that you could walk on it. The sphere would be the same way, with the outer surface, the shielding, whatever 'stuff' is necessary to keep the access gates and such operational, and the pseudocontinent as well making up the sphere wall certain thickness, and the expanse of the surface compensating for the fact that it may only be a mile or two thick.

So, you were right about needing generators, at least to achieve 1g, unless the pseudo-continent and sphere were absurdly thick and/or the sphere spun extremely quickly. But stuff falling into ZC? Only if pushed.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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dstar
Member since Oct-19-02
153 posts
Jun-07-06, 10:26 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #20
 
   >I made a couple of assumptions about the sphere, and you're right,
>Zeta Cygni WOULD exert a pull. The sphere, however, WOULD also exert
>a pull. Maybe an extremely weak one, like Phobos or Deimos, such that
>without gravity generators you could jump too hard (assuming your
>muscles are used to 1g) or throw something and leave the surface and
>therefore fall under the effects of Zeta Cygni, but there is a stupid
>amount of mass in the sphere, and it would have some influence.

Take a point on the inner surface of the sphere, A. Draw a line L through the center of Zeta Cygni, Z, and A, extending to infinity. Place a plane P normal to L at the point it intersects A. This will divide the sphere into two portions, S and S'. If S is the section of the sphere between A and infinity on L, S' is the larger portion of the sphere.

With me so far? Here's why the sphere exerts no pull on anything inside it: S has a 'positive' gravitational pull G (postitive, in this case, being defined as pulling the pseudo-continent away from the star). But S' _also_ has a gravitational pull, G', and since it's on the opposite side of A, it's pull is negative. S' is, on average, much farther away, but it is _also_ far, far more massive.

The result? G + G' = 0. G' is exactly the same size as G, but its sign is reversed, resulting in no net gravitational pull.

>
>If you want to think about why this is so, look in our own back yard,
>or rather in our orbit. The moon is tidally locked with the earth, so
>that one face of it always faces earth. If what you said was true,
>anything on the earthward side of the moon would automatically fall
>towards earth, since earth has a stronger gravitational pull than the
>moon. Since this doesn't, in fact, happen, then the mass of the moon
>must be able to keep stuff firmly attached to the surface.
>

The difference is that the moon is not a shell around the Earth.

>You were right, all mass centers on ZC. From the OUTSIDE. Beyond
>that is where conventional thought gets a little screwy, both because
>of the sheer scale and because conventional thought was never intended
>to study or explain a dyson sphere.

No, it has nothing to do with scale. The exact same thing would apply to a marble surrounded by a tennis ball. The key thing is the mass of the rest of the shell; you can't ignore it. If you could, what you are saying would be the case.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-07-06, 03:33 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #21
 
   >G' is exactly the same size as G

He'd fucking better be. He's only a single mathematical iteration.

--G.
you can stop now, by the way.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
394 posts
Jun-07-06, 07:24 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #21
 
   >No, it has nothing to do with scale. The exact same thing would apply
>to a marble surrounded by a tennis ball. The key thing is the mass of
>the rest of the shell; you can't ignore it. If you could, what you are
>saying would be the case.

I'm not 100% convinced, but mostly b/c I'm not sure we really understand gravity enough. But I'll shut up about it.

What's the advantage to a dyson sphere then, though? Being able to trap all the energy put out by whatever star is great and all, but what does one do with it? New Avalon is a drop in the ocean of surface area inside the sphere, what's being done with the rest of it?

I agree it's hella cool, and would be intimidating as all hell to the 99.umpty-9% of people who don't know how it was created and look at it and go "They BUILT that thing?". And you certainly would never run out of space. But the more I think about it, the more I think the concept in general is beyond nuts.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-07-06, 07:36 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #23
 
   >New Avalon is a drop in the ocean of
>surface area inside the sphere, what's being done with the rest of it?

Photovoltaic cells.

>I agree it's hella cool, and would be intimidating as all hell to the
>99.umpty-9% of people who don't know how it was created and look at it
>and go "They BUILT that thing?".

More and/or better reasons than these were not required by the Reconstruction-era WDF.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
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Jun-07-06, 11:50 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #25
 
   >>I agree it's hella cool, and would be intimidating as all hell to the
>>99.umpty-9% of people who don't know how it was created and look at it
>>and go "They BUILT that thing?".
>
>More and/or better reasons than these were not required by the
>Reconstruction-era WDF.
>
THAT, I have no problem whatsoever believing. Besides, someone probably felt they just had to top the AT&T.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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Pasha
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Jun-07-06, 11:15 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #21
 
   If you really want to argue about non-traditional world building, go read the pendorverse.
--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
257 posts
Jun-06-06, 06:56 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #15
 
   I dunno, I imagine the free power available (think: gadzillions of miles of solar panels!) to a Dyson Sphere is a non-trivial consideration. I mean, if nothing else, they won't need to bother with actually generating power, just collecting and distributing it.

(Heh. The phrase "open-air fusion reactor" just rolled through my mind, which is in effect what a Dyson Sphere could be.)

As for the positioning of the psuedocontinent: I personally believe in Murphy's Law. So, were I designing a Happy Fun Dyson Sphere Community, I'd make sure that no matter what that pesky misbehaving star got up to, I (and by extension, the other shambling meatsacks occupying my city, dagnabbit) would be safe.

Ergo, put the strongest material in the universe between myself and that nuclear holocaust known as Zeta Cygni. Just in case. It costs nothing (compared to the cost of the sphere itself, anyway), makes some things easier, and solves the problem in a foolproof way. Bounce the light I want (minus harmful radiations) around using mirrors to simulate the day/night cycle.

I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that the sphere material is strong enough to contain, say, a supernova... but then again, it might well be. It stopped a Kryptonian artifact moving a relatavistic speeds, after all, with minimal damage... ;)


--sofaspud
--


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BZArchermoderator
Member since Nov-9-05
1668 posts
Jun-05-06, 06:33 PM (EST)
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7. "You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #0
 
   A Wizard did it.

---------------------------
Matt "BZArcher" Wagner
@BZArcher / bzarcher at gmail
"Here's an itemized list of 30
years of disagreements!"


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Moonsword
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Jun-07-06, 07:35 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #7
 
   I like that. It makes sense. For that matter, it's less math that way. Can we just name the wizard "Gryphon, a writer who inspires imaginations" and accept the wizard theory?


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Star Ranger4
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Jun-08-06, 01:08 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #24
 
   >I like that. It makes sense. For that matter, it's less math that
>way. Can we just name the wizard "Gryphon, a writer who inspires
>imaginations" and accept the wizard theory?

Nope. Because it was Lord Farfegnugen who actually provided the sphere, not UF-G.
Still, subsituting Lord F for G in the above...

Hmm. Ok:

"It was made by a Wizard. Lord Farfegnugen, who's technology is sufficently advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic."


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
257 posts
Jun-08-06, 01:20 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #28
 
   >"It was made by a Wizard. Lord Farfegnugen, who's technology is
>sufficently advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic."

I miss Farvie. He was fun.

I also, sometimes, get to wondering just what Big Cosmic Evil!!! he supposedly created the Wedge Rats for in the first place. That particular bit of UF history seems to have been negated by events in UF-Core-4, but I still go cross-eyed sometimes when trying to puzzle it out. ("Lord F created the Rats... but Rats from OUR universe created the UF-verse... and created Lord F... oh dear me, there I go again. Ow.")

If Teh Evil was Surtur, then I'd have thought Wolfie'd have put in an appearance during the Twilight arc. We know he's not all-powerful - heck, he's not as tough, physically, as a Kryptonian (cf. Decker's assassination attempt) - but he does have as-yet-unexplained Vast Frickin' Resources.

If nothing else, I can accept that Lord F possesses the requisite technomagical competence to have engineered the Zeta Cygni Dyson sphere, however it was actually constructed and planned.

(Though part of me still insists it was done by UF-Gryphon, after proving his innocence but before reconciling with Kei. I dunno, it just seems like something he'd have done. Lord F seems less... imaginative?)

--sofaspud
--


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
1187 posts
Jun-08-06, 04:16 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #29
 
   If I were going to make a supposition, I'd say that Lord F was Odin in disguise. :)

Mario


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Moonsword
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Jun-08-06, 08:27 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #29
 
   Maybe he's not as imaginative but you have to admit that Lord F's resources, at least, are probably the backing behind the Sphere as a project. The sheer cost of something like that would be ruinous, I would think. For that matter, once Gryphon had the idea, Lord F might have simply run with it.

Still, I have to wonder just what the timescale was for the Sphere's construction. It seems... unlikely that such a large project would have been built in a couple of years. That makes me think that while Gryphon is in on it (whether after the fact or not), Lord F was the motivating factor behind the Sphere itself. Not New Avalon as a city but the Zeta Cygni Sphere.

That almost makes sense, actually. Lord F seems like someone who would have had the almost-insane vision for the Sphere but Gryphon, eccentric soul that he is, would almost be required for the city. If I remember correctly, the headquarters for the WDF was based out of the yards for a while, right?


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Moonsword
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Jun-08-06, 08:17 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #28
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-06 AT 08:20 PM (EDT)
 
Uhm, you seem to have missed who I was referring to. I'm not referring to Gryphon in the story. I was referring to the author whose vision had managed to spark off this whole debate. In the story, I agree with you. For that matter, I at least don't have any idea who Cianbro is except for building the Sphere and associated paraphenalia.

*Googles*

Well, I'm going to guess that this was a reference to the modern Cianbro Corporation which is a construction firm. Still, given the tech involved, Lord F is a pretty likely backer for the whole thing... and technology is nothing without vision which, admittedly, Lord F cannot be said to have lacked.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-08-06, 10:18 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #32
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-06 AT 10:21 PM (EDT)
 
>Well, I'm going to guess that this was a reference to the modern
>Cianbro Corporation which is a construction firm.

Quite so. I worked for Cianbro in the summer of 1992. I still work for them, sort of, in that I do public relations writing for the firm that handles their account. I had a long-standing fondness for the company's safety culture and its management's focus on employee relations. You don't see open-shop (or, as they like to call it now, merit-shop) employee-owned general contractors with safety standards higher than the government's all that often. I felt they deserved to be immortalized, after a fashion.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Moonsword
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Jun-09-06, 03:17 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: You're forgetting a key fact:"
In response to message #34
 
   That's a really neat way of doing something like that, actually. And, from what you're saying, they sound like a very nice company.


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BlackAeronaut
Member since Apr-15-15
1 posts
Jun-08-06, 08:05 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #0
 
   *Looks up at huge geek-fest over the sphere*
I know Gryphon's already put his foot down on the matter, but all the same... Holy hell, people.

Besides, I like ring worlds like the Halo much better. At that size, they're more flexible and fun!


Black Aeronaut Technologies
Creative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer
"What? Under the dorsal guiding feathers!?"


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Apostate_Soul
Member since Aug-22-08
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Jun-09-06, 02:55 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #0
 
  
I'm not sure if I should apologise or not, but my full apology for, it seems, opening an old topic again, and generating this huge discussion. I only expected a little semi-humorous comment as a response and not the huge debate that sprang up...
____________________

"It's difficult keeping up with the cross-continuity, but I think Cosmouse just gave The Saturnian Scraphunter his Ultimate Pacifier to use against Galactapuss..."


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Druid
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Jun-09-06, 11:06 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Wait... what?"
In response to message #35
 
   >
>I'm not sure if I should apologise or not, but my full apology for, it
>seems, opening an old topic again, and generating this huge
>discussion. I only expected a little semi-humorous comment as a
>response and not the huge debate that sprang up...

People will take any excuse to argue about something. Speaking as someone who has absolutely no authority here whatsoever, I wouldn't worry about it. :) The forum archive for the original UF archive is quite... large.

--
Druid


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