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Subject: "Weapons and Duels" Archived thread - Read only
 
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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Oct-09-01, 01:48 PM (EST)
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"Weapons and Duels"
 
   Two questions:

One: It has, I think, been established that Kate was carrying the zaitoichi illegally in Wounded Rose. Why weren't there any significant consequences for that after her very public duel with Saionji? Not for the duel itself, but for illegally carrying a weapon?

Two: We know the rules of the duels of the IDS are pretty much "anything nonlethal goes". However (according to Gryphon) there are also restrictions on melee energy weapons (lightsabers, etc.). Are there any more restrictions of that sort?

Thanks.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

Eric J. Heckathorn


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Weapons and Duels Gryphonadmin Oct-09-01 1
     RE: Weapons and Duels ejheckathorn Oct-09-01 2
         RE: Weapons and Duels Gryphonadmin Oct-09-01 3
             RE: Weapons and Duels ejheckathorn Oct-09-01 4
             RE: Weapons and Duels Laudre Oct-09-01 5
                 RE: Weapons and Duels Gryphonadmin Oct-09-01 11
                     RE: Weapons and Duels zojojojo Oct-10-01 14
             RE: Weapons and Duels Kitsune9tl Oct-09-01 6
                 RE: Weapons and Duels drakensisthered Oct-09-01 7
                     RE: Weapons and Duels Star Ranger4 Oct-09-01 8
                         RE: Weapons and Duels Laudre Oct-09-01 9
                         RE: Weapons and Duels Gryphonadmin Oct-09-01 10
             RE: Weapons and Duels Matrix Dragon Oct-09-01 12
                 RE: Weapons and Duels Gryphonadmin Oct-09-01 13
                 RE: Weapons and Duels Peter Eng Oct-11-01 15
                     RE: Weapons and Duels Matrix Dragon Oct-11-01 16
                         RE: Weapons and Duels Laudre Oct-11-01 17
                         RE: Weapons and Duels Gryphonadmin Oct-11-01 18
                         RE: Weapons and Duels Peter Eng Oct-12-01 19

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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-09-01, 04:13 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #0
 
   >One: It has, I think, been established that Kate was carrying the
>zaitoichi illegally in Wounded Rose. Why weren't there any
>significant consequences for that after her very public duel with
>Saionji? Not for the duel itself, but for illegally carrying a weapon?

Oh, it wasn't illegal; the weapons laws of twenty-fourth-century Earth are somewhat laxer than they are here in the real world. It was, however, against the school's own campus code. However, in light of the circumstances surrounding the clash (and the fact that the Campus Police were no bloody use whatsoever), the administration basically looked the other way. Regulations don't have to be enforced.

>Two: We know the rules of the duels of the IDS are pretty much
>"anything nonlethal goes". However (according to Gryphon) there are
>also restrictions on melee energy weapons (lightsabers, etc.). Are
>there any more restrictions of that sort?

I'm not sure I understand the question. That particular rule is common sense; you can't have a duel where one participant's weapon will (not might, will) destroy the other. That isn't a duel, it's one person running away a lot.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Oct-09-01, 05:19 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #1
 
   >I'm not sure I understand the question. That particular rule is
>common sense; you can't have a duel where one participant's weapon
>will (not might, will) destroy the other. That isn't a duel,
>it's one person running away a lot.

How about when both participants use lightsabers?

As for the rest of the question... what I was wondering, basically, was if there were any limits on gross mis-matches of weaponry (such as battleaxe vs. switchblade). Now that I think of it, though, I figure they probably either play such things by ear, or else (with the single exception previously noted) trust people to know what they're doing in that regard.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

Eric J. Heckathorn


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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-09-01, 05:22 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #2
 
   >How about when both participants use lightsabers?

I suppose that would be OK, since you could then have a duel; however, it does raise the collateral danger level considerably. It's not all that likely to come up, though - when was the last time you saw a Jedi Knight, let alone two in the same place?

>As for the rest of the question... what I was wondering, basically,
>was if there were any limits on gross mis-matches of weaponry (such as
>battleaxe vs. switchblade). Now that I think of it, though, I figure
>they probably either play such things by ear, or else (with the single
>exception previously noted) trust people to know what they're doing in
>that regard.

Again, it hasn't come up - who the hell duels with a battleaxe? A bat'leth, maybe, if we had any Klingons...

(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Oct-09-01, 05:28 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #3
 
   >I suppose that would be OK, since you could then have a duel;
>however, it does raise the collateral danger level considerably. It's
>not all that likely to come up, though - when was the last time you
>saw a Jedi Knight, let alone two in the same place?

I never have... then again, I've never seen a working lightsaber either. But what does that have to do with...

Um, never mind...

;-)

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

Eric J. Heckathorn


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Laudre
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Oct-09-01, 06:51 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-01 AT 06:52 PM (EDT)

>(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )

Well, maybe not in UF, but Worf's son Alexander Roshenko (I'm not sure I spelled that last name right, and I'm too lazy to check) was a teenager (and old enough to serve aboard a Klingon battlecruiser) by the sixth season of Deep Space Nine. (He was also rather naive about Klingon culture, though. He was kind of the village idiot of the ship he was serving on, though because he was Worf's son, and the ship's commander owed Worf a debt of honor, Alexander was never that bad off.)

-- Sean --
edited because of that damn angle bracket/square bracket thing
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-09-01, 10:12 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #5
 
   >>(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )
>
>Well, maybe not in UF, but Worf's son Alexander Roshenko (I'm not sure
>I spelled that last name right, and I'm too lazy to check) was a
>teenager (and old enough to serve aboard a Klingon battlecruiser) by
>the sixth season of Deep Space Nine.

... which I had stopped watching midway through season 1, so, if you change "we" to "I", my statement stands. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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zojojojo
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Oct-10-01, 02:18 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #11
 
   >>>(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )
>>
>>Well, maybe not in UF, but Worf's son Alexander Roshenko (I'm not sure
>>I spelled that last name right, and I'm too lazy to check) was a
>>teenager (and old enough to serve aboard a Klingon battlecruiser) by
>>the sixth season of Deep Space Nine.
>
>... which I had stopped watching midway through season 1, so, if you
>change "we" to "I", my statement stands. :)


Alternatively, we could make you royalty and merely capitalize the 'we' :)

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Kitsune9tl
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Oct-09-01, 07:16 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #3
 
  
>Again, it hasn't come up - who the hell duels with a battleaxe?

I would. A properly trained Axman can use his axe to hook, and disarm or break weapon. Admittedly a battleaxe is more of an assault weapon (it was meant to bash through plate armor), but duels of honor can and did happen between Clansmen.

If you ever followed the Hilander series one of the Immortals was using an axe.

> A bat'leth, maybe, if we had any Klingons...
>
>(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )
>

--
Of Course I'd probably show up to a duel armed with a Prussian Combat Spade.


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drakensisthered
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Oct-09-01, 07:30 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #6
 
   >
>>Again, it hasn't come up - who the hell duels with a battleaxe?
>
>I would. A properly trained Axman can use his axe to hook, and disarm
>or break weapon. Admittedly a battleaxe is more of an assault weapon
>(it was meant to bash through plate armor), but duels of honor can and
>did happen between Clansmen.
>
>If you ever followed the Hilander series one of the Immortals was
>using an axe.
>
>> A bat'leth, maybe, if we had any Klingons...
>>
>>(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )
>>
>
>--
>Of Course I'd probably show up to a duel armed with a Prussian Combat
>Spade.

Jest not. There's an RPG running in Sheffield where my characters wields a spade since an axe might get him in trouble with the cops, but a spade and a sledge hammer in a golf bag won't do more than raise a couple of eyebrows. Said shovel has wreaked a fair amount of havoc.


drakensisthered

Concealed Weapon? I'm a builder, Guv. Don't mind the blood stains...


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Star Ranger4
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Oct-09-01, 09:50 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #7
 
   >>> A bat'leth, maybe, if we had any Klingons...
>>>
>>>(Hmm. A teenage Klingon. There's something we haven't seen... )
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Of Course I'd probably show up to a duel armed with a Prussian Combat
>>Spade.
>
>Jest not. There's an RPG running in Sheffield where my characters
>wields a spade since an axe might get him in trouble with the cops,
>but a spade and a sledge hammer in a golf bag won't do more than raise
>a couple of eyebrows. Said shovel has wreaked a fair amount of havoc.

::snicker:: Heh, I wouldnt mind seeing a Klingon attendee of W. Prep. And he probobly WOULD consider the sort of thing as 'honorable' and challenging.

And who says weapons have to be edged to be usefull? For example, I point you in the direction of wazziz name... the guy from TMNT who wore the hocky mask and used sports equipment to great devistation... Granted, he was a wuss if you disarmed him, but while armed, he was quite formidable. Kinda like Ukyo + Spatula, for example.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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Laudre
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Oct-09-01, 10:01 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #8
 
   >And who says weapons have to be edged to be usefull?

Nobody did. Mia's Minbari fighting pike is a retractable staff. No edge there, and I've got the sense to keep well away from six feet of whirling [insert material from which it's made here], and so does anyone else who knows anything about melee weapons. The quarterstaff was designed as a battlefield weapon, and it don't take a lot of effort to shatter bone with it. It's harder to accidentally hurt someone with a staff than with a sword, but that's about the only difference.

> For example, I
>point you in the direction of wazziz name... the guy from TMNT who
>wore the hocky mask and used sports equipment to great devistation...
>Granted, he was a wuss if you disarmed him, but while armed, he was
>quite formidable. Kinda like Ukyo + Spatula, for example.

Casey Jones. And he was dangerous mostly because he was completely loony. (In the movies, not nearly so much, but he was rather edgy in the cartoon and just plain demented in the comics, IIRC. Though it's been ages since I read the comics, and I haven't been able to locate any compilations or anything.)

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-09-01, 10:11 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #8
 
   >::snicker:: Heh, I wouldnt mind seeing a Klingon attendee of W. Prep.
> And he probobly WOULD consider the sort of thing as 'honorable' and
>challenging.
>
>And who says weapons have to be edged to be usefull?

Well, no one - but I'm not having a Vulcan student turn up with an ahn woon, all the same. I'm leery of weapons whose primary usefulness is in strangulation...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Matrix Dragon
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Oct-09-01, 11:02 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #3
 
   >I suppose that would be OK, since you could then have a duel; however, it does
>raise the collateral danger level considerably. It's not all that likely to
>come up, though - when was the last time you saw a Jedi Knight, let alone two
>in the same place?

Redneck and Rhi'. Okay, a part-jedi trainee and a Sith. Two sides of the same
coin really.

There are factory made Beam Sabers, if I remember right, not to mention any show-offs that make their own. Plus there are solid weapons that can stand up to energy weapons. Take Marty's swords for example.

Matrix Dragon

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Gryphonadmin
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19236 posts
Oct-09-01, 11:17 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #12
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-01 AT 11:18 PM (EDT)

>There are factory made Beam Sabers, if I remember right, not to
>mention any show-offs that make their own.

There are, but in most cases they're either not very serious weapons - not the sort of thing a Duelist would use - or cutting-edge military hardware - not the sort of thing a Duelist could afford.

>Plus there are solid
>weapons that can stand up to energy weapons. Take Marty's swords for
>example.

Again, not among the Duelists, as far as has been seen.

If it ever came up, they'd figure out a way to deal with it, but it hasn't been an issue. If it ever is, I'll figure it out.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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Oct-11-01, 06:36 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #12
 
   >Plus there are solid
>weapons that can stand up to energy weapons. Take Marty's swords for
>example.
>

Not an especially good choice. Remember, Martin can power a warp-capable fighter, its weapons, and shielding, with nothing more than his dashing good looks and a body by Cybertron. And said fighter has a weapon which is near to, if not in, Omega class.

His swords appear to have gained a similar weapon-and-shield energy field by late Exile, based on the scenes where he fired energy blades from them.

But unless you want a sword with Reflex furnace attached, this isn't particularly practical for anybody else.

Peter Eng

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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Matrix Dragon
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Oct-11-01, 09:02 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #15
 
   >Not an especially good choice. Remember, Martin can power a warp-capable
>fighter, its weapons, and shielding, with nothing more than his dashing
>good looks and a body by Cybertron. And said fighter has a weapon which
>is near to, if not in, Omega class.

Good point. But I was using him as an example of the fact that there are solid weapons that can stand up to energy blades of different sorts. It's a big galaxy, I'm sure there are others out there.

Matrix Dragon

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Laudre
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Oct-11-01, 09:18 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #16
 
   >Good point. But I was using him as an example of the fact that there
>are solid weapons that can stand up to energy blades of different
>sorts. It's a big galaxy, I'm sure there are others out there.

No idea how the history of the Sith in UF compares to that in the SWEU, but in the Sith Empire there were swords made that were alchemically altered so that when they were in the hands of an adept of the Dark Side (typically Sith, of course) they were the match of any lightsaber. (The Dark Jedi who founded the Sith Empire left the Republic before lightsabers had been invented, at a time when Jedi still carried ordinary swords and reinforced them with the Force if necessary, which wasn't often since modern blasters or vibroweapons hadn't been invented yet, and the most common ranged weapon were slugthrowers. While the Jedi developed lightsabers, the Sith created their swords; by the time the Sith Empire met the Old Republic, lightsabers were still less sleek than their modern form, since they were powered by a pack worn on the belt. Lightsabers are a young technology by SW standards, only a few thousand years old in their modern form.)

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-11-01, 11:03 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #16
 
   >Good point. But I was using him as an example of the fact that there
>are solid weapons that can stand up to energy blades of different
>sorts. It's a big galaxy, I'm sure there are others out there.

An Asagiri Katsujinkenryuu master's plain steel blades can withstand almost anything, but that has little to do with the blades themselves. They're merely a conduit for the swordsman's focused ki, which does the actual resisting (against things like lightsabers and vibroblades) or cutting (with proper concentration, they can rend armor and part forcefields). The technique is called the Blade of the Inviolate Soul - it's the ultimate defensive technique in the form, and performing it is the proof of a Katsujinkenryuu fighter's mastery. Until and unless the Inviolate Soul can be manifested, a journeyman remains a journeyman.

It isn't unique to Katsujinkenryuu - by an odd coincidence, there are a couple of episodes of Revolutionary Girl Utena (which I hadn't seen yet when I invented the Inviolate Soul) in which it's pretty clear that Utena can, unconsciously, do something similar. K-ryuu is about the only form where it's been recognized and given a name, though.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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Oct-12-01, 11:54 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Weapons and Duels"
In response to message #16
 
   >>Not an especially good choice. Remember, Martin can power a warp-capable
>>fighter, its weapons, and shielding, with nothing more than his dashing
>>good looks and a body by Cybertron. And said fighter has a weapon which
>>is near to, if not in, Omega class.
>
>Good point. But I was using him as an example of the fact that there
>are solid weapons that can stand up to energy blades of different
>sorts. It's a big galaxy, I'm sure there are others out there.
>

Reasonable enough. Given that there's another example of a solid weapon in UF that can deflect blaster fire besides Martin's swords or Gryphon's swords, I wouldn't be surprised in the least.

However, I'm inclined to believe that the ability to deflect blaster fire or block a lightsaber with a physical weapon is more based on the user than the weapon.

Peter Eng

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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