Umm intelligent speculation on the motivations of the
characters and possible future developments??

-WF-Qu'est-ce que Hoek?!-

I don't think that is the correct way to look at that. It's more likely that the red and green crews would like to see constructive criticism. "Meh" post would be ok if there was some more substance to it then just the "Meh". For the negative comments something more then "This sucks" might be needed.

>Speculation about future projects is discouraged per rules 1 and 2.

Speculation was never discouraged from my view point. I remember discussions on the boards where users were guessing where the stories might go. It's the direct questions to the red and green crews of "What's the next story arc going to look like?" or "When might we see x?" that is discouraged.

>Questions about things made plain in the story are stupid. Questions
>about things not made plain in the story are answered with a "DITTC"
>or fall under the same heading as speculation.

Questions about things in the story are all fine and good, but I don't think the authors should have to spell every minute detail out. A lot of the references can be gotten by doing a simple google search. If after a few trys to understand something then ask a question.

>Random "This reminds me..." musings are, as of now, discouraged.

Why shouldn't it be? This is Eyrie's board why should extraneous topics about some random topic that hit the neurons be posted. I don't want to read the stuff like "Well this part in this story reminded me of a time I went fishing with my Uncle Bob..."

Anyway I'm not part of the red and green teams so anything they say will and should be taken with more seriousness.

Shawn Earl

When the going gets tough, the tough get going to where it's easier.

All I said was that you shouldn't feel obligated to read the Team Batman BPGD, since you'd previously been all snarky about how boring you thought the Justice Society one was.

As for sarcasm, one suspects if you were really all that against it you wouldn't indulge in it yourself so much. (cf. this entire post, for example.)

>Speculation about future projects is discouraged per rules 1 and 2.

No; what's discouraged is the irritatingly coy practice of using such speculation to flout the spirit of rules 1 and 2 while paying lip service to their letter. I don't mind if you guys try to figure out what's going to happen after A Day of Infamy or guess about who the next special guest star on Warrior's Legacy is going to be or take wild stabs at divining what happened to Juni-chan in the time between her latest Symphony appearance and Blades.

What I mind is when people try to get cute and drop "subtle" hints (sometimes accompanied by actual parenthetical "subtle hint!" announcements) that what they're really looking for is an ETA on something, or think they're being clever by asking when we'll next see some character because they figure that skirts the "pending projects" language in the rule.

Syntax review:

Good: Hey, do you suppose any of the Repo Men will figure in whatever the Klingon deal was that Gryphon mentioned to Utena in Blood Ties #2?

Bad: So when will be seeing the Repo Men again? (subtle hint! ;)

>Questions about things made plain in the story are stupid.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, yeah, sometimes they are. Sometimes not - sometimes they indicate something that I thought was obvious actually wasn't and needs to be clarified - but sometimes somebody will ask about something that was just genuinely, blindingly obvious. I don't subscribe to the touchy-feely philosophy that there's no such thing as a stupid question.

>Questions
>about things not made plain in the story are answered with a "DITTC"
>or fall under the same heading as speculation.

Not always, but I'm not going to be bashful about telling you (that's the royal "you") if what you're asking about is either something I didn't think was important enough to design in the kind of detail you're asking about (which happens), or something I prefer to reserve for later in-story revelation.

>Random "This reminds me..." musings are, as of now, discouraged.

If they don't have anything to do with what's going on, yeah. Reference tracing is one thing, but the completely peripheral stuff ("Hey, did you know Sledge Hammer! was out on DVD?", "So I'm working on this story where the Comet Invaders from the second season of Space Battleship Yamato come to Nerima, and I was wondering what kind of tacos they would like,") doesn't belong here.

>And you're certainly not fishing for praise.

No, but it's nice. I mean, I'm not expecting exclusive adulation, but it's always good to be told what you got right.

See, this is what I mean when I say you shouldn't be so quick to throw stones on the topic of sarcasm. That was just plain bitchy.

>Gryph, what do you *want* from us?

I think I've made it as clear as I can in the new AUP. If I could articulate it any better than that, I sincerely don't know how.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

No, I wasn't. I just mentionned I didn't enjoy it as much as most of the other write-ups, and gave a few possible reasons for it.

It was not a flame, it was not a criticism. It was just a "no yay this time, sorry". And you go out of your way to be snarky to me for that.

>As for sarcasm, one suspects if you were really all that against it
>you wouldn't indulge in it yourself so much. (cf. this entire post,
>for example.)

I feel some sarcasm is due here. You're especially bad at taking any kind of negative comments. Okay, fine, most negative feedback you get here comes from trolls, I'll grant you that. But tell me this. Can you think of any way at all to frame a negative comment that would *not* be met with derision on this message board?

"I didn't like this one." Fine, don't read it. "I would have handled that differently." Well, you're not the one writing. "I think that kind of plot point is overused." Gryphon doesn't. And this is his website.

I'm an Eyrie fangirl. I read all the stories, love some, like the others. I've given you my share of praise and will continue to do so unless I am banned. But please stop bullshitting us and just say something along the lines of "Form a line to the right for kudos, form a line to the left for clarifications. Everyone else get out."

>>Questions about things made plain in the story are stupid.
>
>Well, not to put too fine a point on it, yeah, sometimes they are.

Well, that's why I said "are stupid" and not "are considered stupid".

Well, so did I. And here we are, locked into an endless spiral of sarcasm as a result. I hope you're happy.

Ahem.

What I'm saying is, I think it's funny that you're doing exactly the same thing you so sharply accuse me of in this very post. :)

>Can you
>think of any way at all to frame a negative comment that would *not*
>be met with derision on this message board?
>
>"I didn't like this one." Fine, don't read it.

I think "Fine, don't read it" is a perfectly valid, non-derisive response to a criticism as flat and uninformative as "I didn't like this one." There's nothing derisive about telling people whose cup of tea something isn't that they needn't trouble themselves with it.

Take the famous case of Phil Thorne, for example. He was clearly just not on a wavelength where he could enjoy what was going on here, and yet he persisted trying to apply his own methods of analysis to something he obviously neither understood nor wanted to understand. Why? What constructive purpose was that serving on either side?

Some people are just looking for meat in the produce aisle, and I don't think it's derisive or snarky to tell them they're not going to find it and might want to look someplace else.

I've had some very interesting conversations with people who didn't like what I was doing, on the rare occasions when they've bothered to articulate what their objections were. There was one very interesting evening at a Katsucon a few years back, in fact, where I spent several hours discussing NXE with a guy wearing a T-shirt that proclaimed me "evil" for creating it and encouraging all who saw the shirt to "just say no". It turned out, juvenility of his ad campaign aside, that he had some interesting and well-considered thoughts on the subject, and our conversation proved to be both stimulating and worthwhile.

That's the kind of negative comment I'd like to see, if I have to get negative comment at all. Your examples are all from the much less pointful "this wasn't good" school, and for people who have only that to offer, what else can I have to say but "Sorry to hear that, maybe you ought to look elsewhere"? That's not sarcasm, that's just trying to save them and me some grief.

>But please stop bullshitting us and just say
>something along the lines of "Form a line to the right for kudos, form
>a line to the left for clarifications. Everyone else get out."

I don't think it is bullshit. It's true that I don't have much to say to most of the non-praise commentary that happens around here, but I believe that's because that commentary isn't happening on a level where much discussion is even possible. I do believe that such a level exists, and wanting this board to reach it is one of the reasons behind the revamp.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

First of all, sorry about that. I've been feeling out of sorts recently and this has shown mostly in the tone of my online conversation. In short, I apologise for bitching.

As you noted, we both tend to use sarcasm when annoyed and both of us are also annoyed by people who are sarcastic. I'll try to keep it in mind whenever I post on your forums.

>>Can you
>>think of any way at all to frame a negative comment that would *not*
>>be met with derision on this message board?
>>
>>"I didn't like this one." Fine, don't read it.
>
>I think "Fine, don't read it" is a perfectly valid, non-derisive
>response to a criticism as flat and uninformative as "I didn't like
>this one."

I didn't mean it literally, just as an example of how criticism could be framed.

...which is actually the only way it *can* be framed. You've said yourself that you don't have any aspirations towards literature or "art", and you just write to entertain. The only valid criticism of an Eyrie story would be along the lines of "It failed to entertain me".

(And, as noted before, if it failed to entertain you, you should just go somewhere else.)

You're missing something. Literature and 'art' are not the only things that can benefit from criticism. There's also _craft_, and from what I've seen Gryphon et al are definitely interested in improving their skill.

"I didn't like this one" doesn't help; "I didn't like this one because the interaction between Shiori and Gryphon seemed a little flat to me" comes a lot closer.

Shalon Wood

Speaking only for myself, the only way I've had success with negative C+C is to include a detailed "why" as to why I didn't like something. Of course you still run the risk of getting stomped on by someone (author or fanboy) who doesn't want to hear anything negative, but that's a common reaction by many fanfic writers (or their fans) to the negative and not unique to here.

Speaking generally, if you're going to do negative C+C about any story (or part of a story) I think you really do have to say why you didn't like it. It's only polite to do so, and if you can't be bothered to do it then your comment probably deserves to be ignored (but not slapped down in public because, of course, if the comment is a troll, public attention is what the troll wants)

Still speaking generally, I also think one line "I loved it"-type messages without elaboration about what in particular made you "love" it are pretty worthless. Those sorts of things are just ego-strokes to the author and useless as C+C. Not knowing what in particular people think you did good in your writing is equally as bad as not knowing what in particular people think you did badly.

All IMO,

Jeanne

		Jeanne Hedge http://www.jhedge.com http://go.compuserve.com/Comic

And I got nothing but aggro for it. Likewise, I posted a (in my opinion) reasonable explanation of why I didn't like the Hikaru fanart that was posted recently, and once again, got metaphorically smacked down. I think Meagen makes an excellent point.

(Now I'm going to get told off again.)

OK, I just took a look at that thread over in the NXE forum. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing you getting aggro. I see Hideaki Anno getting some aggro (and quite deserved too, I think), but you, no. And whatever aggro you figure you got, you certainly can't say you got any of it from me; I didn't offer any comment one way or another.

(Now you'll say, "Hence my phrasing, 'nothing but aggro'." Sigh. Listen, I got tired of reading reviews of NXE so long before you came on the scene, it's very likely I didn't read the stuff you linked to in your post. By the time that post was made, it was over; I'd been finished with the project for months. And, to be quite frank about it, I'm not inclined to take anybody with "otaku" in his nick all that seriously anyway. Western anime fans adopting one of the Japanese language's more dire insults as some kind of badge of honor has long struck me as pathetically misguided at best. It's like proudly announcing that yes, by God, you are a dirtbag and proud of it!)

>Likewise, I posted a (in my
>opinion) reasonable explanation of why I didn't like the Hikaru fanart
>that was posted recently, and once again, got metaphorically smacked
>down.

Well, reasonable except for the part where you snarked about how "just for a change" you'd like to see art of a female UF character that wasn't fan service, then got huffy about syntax when I called "bullshit" by posting just one example of such artwork already in the collection. And how serious, exactly, did you think my last response in that thread was, anyway? It was in a fake Scots burr!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

1. It has a different meaning in the West, as far as I'm concerned; it's simply a slightly self-deprecating term meaning "anime fan". I am well aware of the Japanese meaning, and it amuses rather than annoys me that it has been adopted in this way, and I use the word to apply to myself as a joke.

2. Your nickname is the name of a non-existent mythological animal or, alternatively, the differently spelled name of an RPG character you once played. Should I refuse to take you seriously because your nickname implies that you either squawk or are a Time Lord?

Regarding the fanart argument; yes, my comment on it was overly hyperbolic. But I still raised a concern and clearly explained that it was an opinion I held out of personal inclination.

Frankly, I'm not surprised you don't get much constructive criticism. This may be sour grapes because I keep putting my foot in the wrong place around here whenever I don't make posts that are largely glowing praise, but it seems that your definition of constructive criticism is a bit narrow. I wouldn't say this if I was the only person voicing such concerns, in case I was simply a misfit who would be better off not posting at all; but I'm not the only one.

(Edit: Forget it, there's no point in turning this into a slanging match. I'll try to make only the kind of posts you want in future.)

This part is true.
I would suggest that you work on improving your footing.

	Kelly St.Clair Usual Suspect/Set Ninja Eyrie Productions, Unlimited "i love this show."

I guess I'm just getting tired of jokes about jokes, then, in the same way that a friend-of-a-friend of mine is tired of movies about movies.

I dunno. Screw it. I don't seem to be able to articulate what I'm really after here to anyone's visible satisfaction, so, hey, everybody - just go on thinking what you already think. The hell with it. I'm not going to bust my hump trying to change your minds any more.

It's November, daylight's a fading joke, a religious fanatic with a very peculiar notion of civil liberty was just re-elected leader of my country, and I'm apparently some kind of soup nazi because I feel like it'd be nice to get something besides dumb questions and grief on my own web board. You know what? Under the circumstances, it's real hard to get up for feeling like it's worth bothering to write. Pasha thinks reading this stuff is starting to feel like work?

Derek Bacon, your people need you.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Message boards tend to go through good and bad cycles, and there isn't a huge amount that can be done about it sometimes. Hopefully the fact that you've voiced your concerns - and as I say, I think *I* get what you mean - will go some way towards improving matters. The forumites here seem a pretty dedicated lot and willing to listen to you and the other admins - be glad you don't have ten thousand giggling teenyboppers who want to know why Frodo is so short and what a spellchecker is to deal with. :D

(Edit: I hope none of the above contravenes the anti-LotR policy. ;-) )

Uhh..not what I meant. What I meant was that writing critism and reviews of the eyrie stuff is feeling like work. Literally. And, while it is something that I enjoy doing, to a certain extent, I can get burned out on it. trigger put it very well with her explaination of "It's like kicking back with a brewski on a friday night." I like your work. Really, I do. I get excited when it comes out, and look forward to reading it all day if it hits before I leave for the store or something, in the same way that I look forward to any books/stories by my favorite authors. However, this doesn't mean that I look forward to picking them apart, taking notes on the larger story arcs, re-reading to make sure that I've got quotes/situations right, etc. Your stuff is getting...cute? Saturday Morning Cartoony? I'm not sure how to discribe the newer output, but there's just a feeling that, not only will plot points be tied up, but they are frequently tied up in the story itself. Which means there's no real desire to wonder what's gonna happen next.

At the risk of sounding insulting, EPU is starting to become more ST:TNG then B5. I like both shows, but for vastly different reasons. TNG was great to watch because there were a couple of over-arching plot lines, the characters were excellently portrayed, the universe was standard throughout the show's run, and at the end of the episode, you weren't left hanging. You could come into each one fresh, having missed whole seasons, and not really be wondering what's going on.

B5 on the other hand, had all that AND very tight continuity that moved between episodes, between seasons that forced you to not only pay attention to what the people were saying/shooting, but who, and more importantly, why.

It's not that EPU's characters have lost there why, but for a period there in the late 1990's, and 2000-2002, you were en fuego. SotS was incredible. NXE:TMP was awe inspiring. Other then that, you're just another Mike Stackpole. Good stuff, always happy to read it, probably not gonna think too much about it a couple days after the book is done.

--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."

I think part of the problem may be that a lot of the current stuff is basically filling in the gaps between the chronologically latest bits of the Symphony and Day of Infamy. Until the main plot arc moves on in a big way from DoI, nothing really shocking is likely to happen. Warriors of the Outer Rim is obviously post-DoI, but doesn't advance the universe-wide plot a huge amount.

I'm looking forward to Cybertron Reloaded, because I think this may well be a big move forward , since it's a big post-DoI event. Plus Transformers are always cool. :D

I take some comfort in knowing that you probably don't have the context to understand why this was among the most hurtful things you could possibly say to me.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Never mind. Taint going there.

Umm..no. I don't. And, it wasn't intended to be hurtful. In fact, it was something of a complement. I like Stackpole's work better then just about any fluff sci-fi author, and I've read more then my fair share of them.

--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."

Yes. This is indeed frustrating, and has been one of the things that's gotten me down, forum-trend-wise, in the last year or so. People used to post these lovely detailed breakdowns of stuff like the early Symphony pieces, noting what was good for them, what was strange, what needed clarification. That's petered out over the last year or more, and I think it's too bad. I'd much rather know what I did right than just that what I did was or wasn't appreciated.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

As one of the people who used to do that around here, I'd like to apologise for the lack, as well cite some reasons why I no longer do.

1) General Lack of Time:
When the Forums had just started up, I was working less, and had a much less involved family life. I just, in general, don't have the odd couple of hours a week (what a good, complete pass through a new EPU gift can take.)

2) It became "Work.":
When I changed industries from hi-tech to book retail, I realised that, not only did I have to read most of what came in, mark it up, review them for an employee booklet AND booksense, local papers, etc., that doing the same for fanfic when I got home was one of the last things that I wanted to do.

3) The IRC Channel:
There was a period in #eyrie's life where the authors and the suspects used to come and hang out on a regular basis. We (random fans) could sit around, ask them questions, pick at their brains, etc. Unfortunatly, the S:N of an irc channel goes down quicker then a webboard.

4) The Forums themselves:
As the Forum's S:N started to degrade, and meaningful discourse would stop after four or five posts, it became less and less of an incentive to commit a couple of hours of my non-copious free time to a full and thorough review. This not the fault of the staff, who always had something to say about them, nice or not.

--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."

5) Lack of inclination

While I've never been copious about public C+C on these boards, the recent trend of UF stories to star non-classic comic/animation superhero characters (or the successors of classic ones) who I've never heard of has made me less inclined to read their stories, let alone comment on them. Why waste everyone's time commenting about characters I know nothing about, haven't the time to research, and no real interest in learning about in the first place?

That's for me of course, I have no idea if others share my opinion. I just don't care much for the particular direction the authors seem to be taking UF in (which affects my posting patterns), but that's their decision to make for their own reasons.

I think the last UF stories I actually enjoyed were the ones based on CSI from back in March and April, and that was because I know the CSI people.

Jeanne
(edits for spelling and clarification)

		Jeanne Hedge http://www.jhedge.com http://go.compuserve.com/Comic

Beware, for you have just awakened the critter within (old joke).

Terminus Est

Incidentally, being a non-anime-fanboy, I have -no- idea what the word means. I have my suspicions, but could you perhaps PM me with the meaning? I'd appreciate it.

Terminus Est

There are a couple reasons why the Forum annoying users, who offer only sound and fury, signifying nothing, bloomed this fall.

1. Time, time Time.
People focus on characters because it is simple, cute, and they can post quickly. This also demands less brainpower. So why not be squeeky about x-character?

2. Forms vs. Chat
So it is online letters or text messaging? I suspect we've a generation gap and a perspective gap on what a Forum should be and how to use it.

3. Level of difficulty
So you're online and you read a story. Do you (a) tell the author it rocked and sound like a fanboi, (b) tell the author what you think didn't rock, or (c) offer cogent comments only after review and contemplation? People who try for a higher level then fanboi often default to (b) because it is easy and quicker then (c). I suspect they also avoid (c) for fear of being called an idiot. Oh, and (b) is a machismo thing that I'm sure I don't need to explain.

So why don't _smart_ people default to (c)?

1. Ummmmmmmm, eyrie...
For those of us who enjoy reading your material for the characters, the mytharc, etc. what you (or any of the authors) "did right" is pretty much everything. I suspect the few who are professional writers offer commentary and criticism on the side. The rest of us - well, we know a darn good yarn, and treat good work (and praise of if) as self-evident.

2. Thank god you're not Faulkner
People not praising your writing style because it is yours. Your prose is polished, well known, and much improved over the 1990s. What else to say?

>2. Thank god you're not Faulkner
>People not praising your writing style because it is yours. Your
>prose is polished, well known, and much improved over the 1990s. What
>else to say?
>
>

Wow. That's the prettiest negative adjective that's been attached to something I do since Phil Rhodes called my email response time "noisome".

(Which doesn't actually make any sense, since email response time doesn't smell like anything, but hey.) It's a nice word.)

I do do that, though. Sometimes it's deliberate, as when the same phrase turns up repeatedly, in an effort to make a point or do something vaguely poetic within the confines of prose. Sometimes it's just because I can't think of a decent synonym for the word and end up concluding that I have to use it more than once in close proximity, however clunky it ends up sounding. The rest of the time it's just a mistake, and yes, one that wouldn't happen as often if I weren't essentially editing my own work.

>Long, long before Symphony and before I
>ever discovered the EPU forums, I even offered Gryphon my services as
>a copy editor (for which I have some professional credits) because it
>seemed at times one was needed, particularly one who was
>not involved with the creative process.

That's very possibly true (that one's needed, I mean), but it's always seemed to me that going to the length of employing an actual copy editor smacked of taking this whole silly business much too seriously. Not that I don't anyway, I suppose; viz. this entire thread.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Um, I'm not sure you really want to do that - I think Gryph's comments were about chatter that had NOTHING to do with Eyrie. Like the latest DBZ episode to think of a really horrific example.

which is not to say that I don't love the live journal site...I just appreciate the sparse and focused nature of the posts.

t.
has probably said too much

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

"If we are marked to die, we are enough
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater the share of honour
God's will I pray thee wish not one man more" - Henry V, Act, IV Scene III

*Tries to come up with some sort of joke about that...*

Ah, nevermind. Welcome back, Zoner! I see you got caught in a inactive user purge yet again...