When today sucks and the outlook for tomorrow looks worse, there's always yesterday.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

In this particular case, there's also a less philosophical and more practical reason for the file: The Cosmo Sabre has a cameo of sorts in the next issue of Rogue Squadron: Colonial Forces Special Flight Test Division, as does the updated F-8ZZ ("Super Crusader Double Zed"). Both of them are in testing at Zukowsky FTC at the time of the current Rogue Squadron storyline.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Just the sort of cool tie ins that make UF such a living, breathing world Gryph!

;:) :) :)

Because the F-86 was an unmatched, era-defining icon and the F-100 was, at the end of the day, a fuel-hungry pig that the USAF eventually swept under the rug? There's at least one mention in Yeager's autobiography about the F-100, and I'm quoting loosely here, being such an unstable gun platform that he could hit a B-36 from wingtip to wingtip in a single pull of the trigger.

Don't get me wrong, I love how the F-100 *looks,* but there's several other Century fighters that would probably come before the Hun in the Retrotech line. :)

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

There was also its unfortunate habit of viciously killing innocent pilots who were simply trying to land the goddamned thing. :)

But yeah, basically this. The Sabre had a brilliant career which included the kind of war service that permanently identifies a war (Korea) with one of the tools that helped fight it. Almost ten thousand of them were made. It was the first American aircraft of the Cold War to go head-to-head with its Soviet opposite number of the day and come out on top (the F-80, while also a fine aircraft and one I have a fondness for, not having quite been able to close the deal).

The Super Sabre, on the other hand, while not exactly a failure, never really worked as a fighter. Oh, sure, it set a bunch of aeronautical records and was a generally impressive aircraft, but it never developed a reputation as a successful air-to-air combatant. All its operational success in Vietnam came as a tactical bomber, in which role it was superseded by a more suitable successor (the F-105 Thunderchief, which would be my personal choice for "Retrotech entry from the Century Series").

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Despite all its flaws, it's tough to find a bird as iconic as old Double Ugly, next to the Sabre jet of course.

Seeing as how it's still flying in many countries (including the US as a target drone the QF-4), it will be a sad day when the last of them stops flying...

"A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week" - Gen George S. Patton, Jr.

Actually, the F-4 was very briefly the F-110 when the Air Force was considering adopting it, also just as briefly adopting the name Spectre. /pedant :)

I'm with Gryph, though, about the F-105. The Phantom would just be duplicating effort, at least for that particular design crew. Of course, there's a lot of people out there making aerospace fighters in the galaxy...

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

Though, to really make the gag worth it, they'd need to fit it out with retrotech Sparrows that suck just as bad as the real things did. ;)

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

Heck, the one ship I used to love flying the most back when I had like most of the Janes combat flight sims, was their 'F-4 upgraded with modern electronics' models. about the only thing I think might be cooler would be if they'd upgraded the engines too. Just think what a phantom airframe might be capable of if they dropped in a couple of surplus f16 engines?

If you are talking fighters, I'd agree.

But I'll always have a soft spot for the Warthog.

That wouldn't really be much of a challenge, though. I mean, as an atmospheric ground attack/close air support platform, all the A-10 will ever need is continually updated electronics. It's an apex predator in that role, like a shark. It never needs to evolve again. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Another fully evolved airframe seems to be the B-52. Sometimes you start to think that the Air Force is going to have to start producing them again, because nothing does the job so well.

-D-

"...and the whole ship is just one big blage. With a grapping window. Why do the words 'warp core breach' come to mind?"
"Because if any of the fine technicians in this room grapp up, we are going to light up like a supernova. This sucker shouldn't even come near a planet, much less be sitting in Newport News. But I try to downplay that..."

True. And there have been some authors that propose that this Old Dog still has some tricks up its sleeve, though I shant go further into that having stepped on that landmine in my ignorance back when I was a newbie to the board.

Well, some say it needs new engines, but "the bros" have been arguing for that for about a...decade now...I wouldn't bet on this one coming to pass unless they just outright build "Son of A-10" -

But if we're talking about airplanes with an "A" prefix, MOGSY like the A-1E/J Skyraider - aka "Spad" very, very much (speaking of an iconic Vietnam bird.... I recommend the book "My Secret War" by Richard Drury...if you can FIND a copy)

...and, another stalwart rescued from the boneyard...the A-26K "Counter-Invader" - I guess what I dig about our military aviation is our continued ability to modify and resurrect just about, well, ANYTHING.

The "Thud" - G model F-105, was the two-seat Wild Weasel build of the jet, if I'm not mistaken (what can I say, I like SEAD)

Another crasy job - they used the 100 and later the F-4 as a "Fast FAC" with either the famous "Misty" or "Nail" call signs...

http://sgspires.tripod.com/Fast_FACs/fast_facs.html - talk about a white-knuckle job...

"The figures I heard at the time was that you were 25-times more likely to be shot down as a Fast FAC than doing a regular job..." L.D. Johnston

Well, they finally got around to refitting and making the A-10C, but this is mostly just electronics. Considering the AF was talking about getting rid of the A-10 a couple of years ago, though, its a good sign. (I think this had something to do with the Army threatening to recover decommissioned A-10s and getting back into the fixed wing business if the AF didn't do something to keep them around).

-D-

"...and the whole ship is just one big blage. With a grapping window. Why do the words 'warp core breach' come to mind?"
"Because if any of the fine technicians in this room grapp up, we are going to light up like a supernova. This sucker shouldn't even come near a planet, much less be sitting in Newport News. But I try to downplay that..."

(Sorry, I'll clean that up. Just haven't been impressed by the alternating streams of macho bullshit and petulant whining coming out of that service lately.)

The 'Hog is practically the archetype of "More DAKKA!"

Lots more play WH40k than you'd think :) Dude, I'm NOT sh*ttin' you.

There are MORE nerds in flight suits than I think anyone suspects...

And NOT just flying UAVs... ;)

If I had a dime for every Star Wars reference.... I mentioned before we had a guy in my squadron in Korea who's callsign was (and still is) Porkins...

....and for every Marine I've ever heard make a "Corporal Hicks" joke...("Game over man")

or a "Vasquez" joke...

...or the SMSgt with the Robotech figures (I think they were from the Exosquad re-release from a couple years back actually) all over his office (guy made command chief last time I checked)...

...or the SSgt at my last base who was filming his own zombie movie on the weekends...

...then there was this one linguist...brilliant kid....little "off"....had half a space marine army in his cubicle.

or the Lt who works for me now, who's an active member of the 501st :) - Stormtrooper. Keeps trying to get me to join (I ain't spending a grand on storm trooper armor, sorry).

The military has gotten much, much, MUCH more "fen" than I think most people realize.

Ever check out the webcomic Air Force Blues? Or any books by (TSgt) Michael Z. Williamson? (at least, I think he's a tech - his website shows him as a SSgt in '98)...

Don't get me started on Transformers - we (zoomies) were just happy to have "our" movie finally, that wasn't Iron Eagle... friggin' Navy and their Top Gun...

"No airman, I don't want to hear your cosplay stories." (true story)

I think its more the brass that hate it than the pilots. Once they fire the 30mm and shred a target tank for the first time, I would think most pilots would love the thing. It epitomizes 'more power'.

-D-

"...and the whole ship is just one big blage. With a grapping window. Why do the words 'warp core breach' come to mind?"
"Because if any of the fine technicians in this room grapp up, we are going to light up like a supernova. This sucker shouldn't even come near a planet, much less be sitting in Newport News. But I try to downplay that..."

The A-10C upgrade pretty much makes the whole 'the USAF hates it' argument moot. It extends the service life to at least 2028, and possibly longer. The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it, but it's dirt cheap to operate the A-10 in comparison, so odds are probably good it'll be around for a long time.

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

No matter what aircraft this statement is applied to, the answer is "AHAHAHAHAHA."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

Actually, I meant that the other way around; the idea of the F-35 replacing anything strikes me as hilarious. As the great Han Solo said, "This is not gonna work."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

Well, not surprising really. Once again history repeats itself, the USAF gets exactly the aircraft it wanted, and its "partners" get hosed. The USAF got the F-16 replacement it wanted in the F-35, while the USN and USMC are left with an aircraft that neither wanted but both will end up paying for.

The USAF's been grumbling about getting rid of the A-10 for years. The reality is that there simply is no aircraft, either in service or on the drawing board, which can match or surpass it. It's pretty much like the B-52: Every aircraft that will "replace" it has either been canceled or proved too expensive to buy in sufficient quantities.

Well, again, there's always a difference between the top levels and what the dude actually flying and employing with it want. Remember, the last couple top dogs in the USAF leadership were F-15 and F-16 jocks. I think the Hog's position is secure, except it is starting to get on up there. The BUFF, as amazing a machine it is, is also getting old, but by the time it DOES finally retire, it's going to be pushing 80 or 90.

However you slice it though, that IS impressive. And personally, I think the psychological value alone warrants keeping a couple Hogs and BUFFs around even past the retirement date...just because :)

But the reason I mentioned the Skyraiders and the A-26s before - those things were in the boneyard, for years even, and Vietnam showcased a need for slow and low, reliable and durable CAS platforms - the kind of thing the SAC-driven USAF of the late '50s and '60s WASN'T building...

FTW, we stick artillery pieces on C-130s though, can't be that...

...except maybe by slinging some paladins underwing a C-5 or something :p

I heard a line about the BUFF on the Military Channel once, which went something like "Why get rid of B-52? B-52 still works." And that really applies to both it and the Hog, because why get rid of an aircraft, no matter how old, if it's still the best at what it does?

>However you slice it though, that IS impressive. And personally, I
>think the psychological value alone warrants keeping a couple Hogs and
>BUFFs around even past the retirement date...just because :)

I think by 2048, we might have finally built a successor to the BUFF. But I could see the A-10 serving, if not in the USAF, then in some nation's air arm well past the retirement date.

>But the reason I mentioned the Skyraiders and the A-26s before - those
>things were in the boneyard, for years even, and Vietnam showcased a
>need for slow and low, reliable and durable CAS platforms - the kind
>of thing the SAC-driven USAF of the late '50s and '60s WASN'T
>building...

Hell, they said the Skyraider would never see combat. That, with WWII over and the Jet Age here to stay, the "Spad" would enjoy a short service life and then be replaced by a jet bomber. Then Korea happened and the same Admirals who'd written it off were now depending on it as a long-legged bomb truck. Wasn't until the A-4 came into service that there finally was an aircraft that could surpass it.

>FTW, we stick artillery pieces on C-130s though, can't be that...
>
>...except maybe by slinging some paladins underwing a C-5 or something
>:p

Give'em time. Before too long, they'll find something heavier or meaner that they can shoehorn into it. Like, say, a Metal Storm system that could fire 40mm grenades at 1 million rounds a second.

FWIW, I can count the number of Hog drivers expressing a desire to get OUT of the jet on one hand.

...and that had to do with the deployment rate! and in my favorite, most prescient quote from a USAF fighter pilot I've ever heard: "I enjoy _employing_ far more than I do _flying_. I don't miss the FAA, ATC, FCIF, stan-evil, any of that garbage, but I DO miss employing the gun."

-Joe-

The Venger is what makes the Hog... Keep it but refit to fire 30mm Grav, like G did with the .45's when he took up the Shadow Motif.

Not to mention adding the hyper-pez dispenser ammo feed :)

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

Winston Blake: Let's face it, the A-10 doesn't 'fly'; it stares down gravity until it runs into a corner sobbing and then, due to sheer badassery, the air decides to get out of its way.

-------------
Lead me not to temptation, for I can find it myself.

The A-10 is like the grizzled old-school Linebacker of the United States Air Force. It's not flashy, it's not super-fast, it's not going to do like twenty barrel rolls just to try and prove to you how huge it's cock is... it just shows up, fucks everyone's shit up, and goes home.

(which I first saw, as a quote, in one of the The Salvation War: Armaggeddon threads, for those of you familiar with said)