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Subject: "Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-14-07, 01:32 AM (EDT)
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"Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
 
   Yeah, yeah, I seem to be on a "silly stuff about mecha" bender...

Weird Weapons of the WDF
By Colleen MacKinlon

Not all of the Golden Age Wedge Defense Force's weapons systems were as hugely successful as the venerable VF-1 and VF-6 Veritech fighters, the iconic Destroids, or the mighty SDF-17. During the Force's nearly 400 years in action before the 2288-2381 hiatus, it had its share of flops, miscalculations, and just plain bad ideas too. Here are a few of the "best", in no particular order.

ATAC-X1 Spartas Veritech Hover Tank

The Spartas Veritech Hover Tank was proposed in 2050 by Kallon Industries, long-time equipment contractors to the WDF and Royal Salusian Armed Forces and creators of such famous mecha as the WHM-6R Warhammer (RSN designation: MBR-04 Tomahawk) heavy Destroid. On the face of it, the concept seemed like a slam dunk. After all, Veritech aerospacecraft were a big success, as were smaller Veritech ground vehicles like the Garland variable battlemover and the Cyclone series of combat motorcycles, and both Destroids and tanks served with distinction in the WDF's ground forces.

However, once the ATAC-X1 prototype went into testing, certain shortcomings of the design became obvious. For one thing, the concept wasn't really as useful as it seemed at first blush. Tanks and Destroids complement each other in battle, and units that can change from one to the other are really not bringing anything new to the table. Still, that wasn't the real problem with the Spartas.

The real problem with the Spartas was that it just wasn't a well-designed vehicle. Not only did its design place the crew on the outside in two of its three modes (hover tank and walker tank), it could only use its main weapon in one mode: walker tank, which was the slowest and least maneuverable of the three, and one of those that exposed the pilot. Admittedly, that main weapon, a devastating long-range particle projection cannon, was a good one, and would later be adapted to revised versions of the Warhammer and the VA-1 Judicator Veritech attack fighter - but the ATAC-X1 was not a suitable platform and was never adopted. The project quietly folded after prototype testing was complete.

YVB-10 Königsmonster

The 300-ton MHP-2 Monster super artillery Destroid is one of the iconic war machines of the 21st through 23rd centuries, a hulking bruiser of an armored fighting vehicle mounting four 400mm naval cannon - essentially a walking battleship turret with armor to match. Huge, massively armored, indifferent to attack from anything short of a capital ship, the Monster can only manage a maximum speed of about 15 miles per hour - a man on a bicycle can easily outrun it - but it's nearly unstoppable and virtually anything that comes under is gigantic guns is dead, no questions asked. Armies have surrendered to the WDF on the rumor that one of these things was on its way. It's not the most practical of weapons systems, but it was and remains one of the most beloved of WDF mecha.

The YVB-10 Königsmonster (the name means King Monster in German) was a proposal by a Niogan company, Bundeskanzler Waffenfabrik AG, to develop a Veritech MHP-2. Powered by fusion engines of a type usually employed to drive small warships, the Königsmonster would have been able to transform into an aerospace vehicle or assume a fully humanoid battroid mode, with a form very similar to the well-loved Monster profile as its "GERWALK"-equivalent. With access to all of its weapons in flight mode and a pair of the 400mm guns in battroid mode, it would have been a more mobile and flexible weapon than the MHP-2. There were even tentative plans for a version that dispensed with two of the 400mm cannon and replaced them with bays for two dozen Cyclone-equipped infantry. The bomber configuration would have been able to carry a pair of the VB-9 Beta Legios bomber's trademark "drum bombs".

On the minus side, each operational VB-10 would have cost cr2 billion, roughly the same price as a Salusian ARMD-class spacecraft carrier - more than a hundred times the already hefty price tag of an MHP-2. Besides which, it was designed to fulfill a need that, as far as the WDF's strategic planners were concerned, simply didn't exist. There are rumors that the WDF's top brass liked the concept enough that they ordered one just to have it - not inconceivable to those who know them - but no YVB-10 was ever officially ordered, nor seen in testing, to say nothing of deployment of a full combat model.

X-9 Ghost Automatic Fighter

The Northrop Aerotech X-9 Ghost was a proof-of-concept test vehicle for a fully AI-controlled aerospace superiority fighter. At the time, in the early 23rd century, many military theorists believed that the performance limits of human-piloted aerospacecraft had been reached and that the future of space combat lay in fully automated weapons. The idea of fully autonomous aerospacecraft was nothing new - GENOM had been using Boomer fighters for decades - but it was believed that an AI sophisticated enough to function usefully in combat would be too large and costly to use in mass-produced starfighters.

In 2210, Northrop's Advanced Space Technologies Team developed the X-9 prototype without a direct solicitation from the WDF and asked the Force's commanders to let them station it aboard WDF Daedalus (SLV-111) for testing. The hope was that the WDF brass would see the vehicle in action, be impressed, and issue a spec for a fully production-ready combat model.U nfortunately, the Ghost project team lead was the famed computer scientist and AI engineer Richard Daystrom, whose development of duotronic technology in the 2190s revolutionized starship computers. Daystrom, who took personal charge of the Daedalus tests, did a few things wrong. For one, he openly ridiculed the idea that humanoid pilots might remain behind the controls of starfighters - which did not make him many friends among the WDF officers assigned to oversee the project, not least Commander Benjamin D. "Gryphon" Hutchins, who led the renowned "Eight-Ball" Valkyrie squadron throughout the Golden Age. Daystrom boasted to Gryphon's face that the Ghost and its visionary multitronic "brain" would put him, and all the WDF's other organic pilots, out of a job.

Worse, though not even he knew it, Daystrom suffered from an undiagnosed latent mental illness that, if triggered, would manifest as full-blown paranoid psychosis. Worst of all, the special computer system he developed to house the Ghost's artificially aware operating system was based on a recording of his neural engrams - and so contained the same fatal flaw, hardwired directly to a high-performance aerospacecraft fitted with powerful weapons systems. The outcome was almost predictable. The Ghost prototype suffered a mental breakdown, went rogue, and caused serious damage to the flight decks of Daedalus and Prometheus before Eight-Ball Squadron managed to destroy it. The WDF has never again allowed any contractor to develop fully automated combat mecha.

MHP-X3 Monster II

Affectionately known around the Vickers Armor Works design shop as Superbeast, the MHP-X3 was a design spec for another variation on the time-honored Monster artillery Destroid. Sporting ten of the Monster's famous 400mm cannon and possessing increased ground speed thanks to its colossal Vlar 22500 fusion plant (originally developed to power cities), the Superbeast was, on paper, a perfectly viable piece of technology - it was just that no one could figure out any practical use or need for a 700-ton mega-Destroid. Calculations showed that the MHP-X3, if built, wouldn't even have been able to stand on the SDF-17's foredeck in standard gravity without buckling armor plates at the corners. On any reasonable planetary surface, it would sink to its hips almost immediately, becoming a formidable but rather static artillery emplacement. Though the concept art became a popular series of posters and was eventually used on the cover to Card No. 1's 2158 album Heavy Metal Thunder, the MHP-X3 was never prototyped.

XV-74 Synthetic Super Battle Trooper

Originally developed in the 2280s by the New Japan Strategic Self Defense Force, the XV-74 was devised by maverick technologist Gendou Ikari (a classmate and fraternity brother of the late Katsuhito Stingray) as an urban defense weapon. Code named Evangelion by the NJSSDF, the XV-74 was an attempt to use GENOM's semi-biological Boomer technology to produce daikaiju-class combatants more quickly and economically than they could be constructed using standard Destroid technology. When the money ran out with the prototype half-completed, Ikari turned to the WDF, hoping to interest its commanders enough that they would fund completion of EVA-00.

Though intrigued by the concept, the WDF had precious little use for 300-foot-tall combat bioroids. Being semi-biological, Evangelions could not operate in space, where the WDF did most of its work in those days, without complicated and costly secondary equipment that had been theorized, but not designed. Also, their design precluded installing conventional power generation equipment of sufficient mass to make the monstrous bioroids work, forcing them to rely on broadcast power, umbilical power, or onboard batteries with an extremely limited life of only 300 seconds. Worse, the prototype's command and control systems were hugely temperamental and had already almost killed one test pilot with neural feedback. The WDF passed on the project and the half-finished prototype was dismantled.

Ironically, had the SDF-17 had an XV-74 or two fitted with space combat gear aboard just two years later, it might have been able to fight off the attack of GENOM Corporation's Star Destroyer Executioner. Certainly GENOM had nothing in its arsenal that could have coped with a direct assault by two daikaiju-class battle bioroids on the Executioner's hull and command tower.

AJACS Veritech Helicopter

Another of those ideas, like the Spartas Veritech Tank, that looked great on paper, the AJACS was a proposed Veritech attack helicopter. The problem was, for some reason the design team at ExoSalusia decided that the AJACS, instead of filling the usual helicopter combat roles of ground support/anti-armor, would be a spacecraft, with a function similar to that of the VF-6 Alpha Legios fighter. Accordingly, it was designed with air-to-air weapons and elaborate aerospace-combat-oriented sensor and fire-control systems.

Let's just go over that one more time. It was supposed to be a helicopter... for fighting in space.

To be fair, the computer simulations showed that, with its thruster configuration, it would've worked, and the "rotor system" was really more of an adjustable vector control system, with adjustable thrusters at the tips of the four blades. The fly-by-wire system would have been capable of adjusting between rotary-wing and spaceflight modes transparently to the pilot, and by all estimations, it would've been a fairly capable space combatant. Still, the whole concept was just weird, and didn't address any actual need the WDF had, so they passed on the idea. For a while it looked like the Royal Salusian Armed Forces might buy it, but budget cutbacks in 2179 finally killed the project altogether.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Kokuten Feb-14-07 1
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 O_M Feb-14-07 2
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-14-07 3
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Bad Moon Feb-14-07 4
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 jadmire Feb-14-07 5
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Peter Eng Feb-14-07 10
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 clg Feb-14-07 18
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 FubarObfusco Feb-15-07 21
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-15-07 22
             RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Wedge Feb-15-07 26
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 MOGSY Feb-14-07 6
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-14-07 11
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 MOGSY Feb-14-07 19
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 asuffield Feb-14-07 7
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 dbrandon Feb-14-07 8
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 asuffield Feb-15-07 20
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Offsides Feb-14-07 9
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 fb111a Feb-16-07 35
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 trboturtle Feb-14-07 12
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 BlackAeronaut Feb-14-07 13
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 BlackAeronaut Feb-14-07 14
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 SpottedKitty Feb-14-07 15
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 CdrMike Feb-14-07 16
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 BlackAeronaut Feb-14-07 17
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Moonsword Feb-15-07 23
             RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Tabasco Feb-15-07 24
                 RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-15-07 27
                     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Moonsword Feb-15-07 31
             RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 CdrMike Feb-15-07 29
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 McFortner Feb-15-07 25
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-15-07 28
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Tabasco Feb-15-07 30
         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Kathy Feb-16-07 32
             RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 MOGSY Feb-16-07 33
                 RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-16-07 34
                     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 fb111a Feb-16-07 36
                         RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-16-07 37
  RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 fb111a Feb-16-07 38
     RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408 Gryphonadmin Feb-16-07 39

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Kokuten
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Feb-14-07, 01:45 AM (EDT)
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1. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   " Though the concept art became a popular series of posters and was eventually used on the cover to Card No. 1's 2158 album Heavy Metal Thunder, the MHP-X3 was never prototyped."

the mind boggles, and is interested.

--
Kokuten Daysleeper
RCW #13013
(Insert Witticism Here)


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O_M
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Feb-14-07, 02:33 AM (EDT)
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2. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   I recognize almost all of these(the Königsmonster has always been a favorite design of mine), but was the Monster II actually in any source material? Because if it was, I'm curious about what possible role it played in its own universe. Or did they just sorta...forget about little things like mass and such for the sake of big damn robots? :)


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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-14-07, 02:47 AM (EDT)
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3. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #2
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-07 AT 02:48 AM (EST)
 
>I recognize almost all of these(the Königsmonster has always been a
>favorite design of mine), but was the Monster II actually in any
>source material?

Nah. I just figured that, like any maturing armed force, the Golden Age WDF went through its "BIGGER! We must have BIGGER!!" phase. :)

--G.
"Bigger? My my!"
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Bad Moon
Member since Dec-17-02
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Feb-14-07, 07:00 AM (EDT)
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4. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #3
 
   >Nah. I just figured that, like any maturing armed force, the Golden Age WDF
>went through its "BIGGER! We must have BIGGER!!" phase. :)

Man, I can just see the meeting where that was suggested.

"You know, the Monster is a great piece of machinery, but I was thinking. One 400mm cannon is great and all, but wouldn't ten 400mm cannons be ten times as great?"

"You're a genius! Call Bill in design and get him on this!"

------
Jon Helscher

I'm here to slow you down, cost you money, and generally retard the process.

-Mike Rowe: Dirty Jobs


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jadmire
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Feb-14-07, 08:01 AM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   >X-9 Ghost Automatic Fighter
>
>The Northrop Aerotech X-9 Ghost was a proof-of-concept test vehicle
>for a fully AI-controlled aerospace superiority fighter. At the time,
>in the early 23rd century, many military theorists believed that the
>performance limits of human-piloted aerospacecraft had been reached
>and that the future of space combat lay in fully automated weapons.
>The idea of fully autonomous aerospacecraft was nothing new - GENOM
>had been using Boomer fighters for decades - but it was believed that
>an AI sophisticated enough to function usefully in combat would be too
>large and costly to use in mass-produced starfighters.
>

The UFverse's version of "The Ultimate Computer" episode on ST:TOS. This would make a GREAT Golden Age story IMO...I'd especially love to see the clashes between Daystrom and Gryph as the scientist tries to trash-talk the pilot about having to go on the dole once his wonderful X-9 goes into full production.

>XV-74 Synthetic Super Battle Trooper
>
>Originally developed in the 2280s by the New Japan Strategic Self
>Defense Force, the XV-74 was devised by maverick technologist Gendou
>Ikari (a classmate and fraternity brother of the late Katsuhito
>Stingray) as an urban defense weapon. Code named Evangelion by
>the NJSSDF, the XV-74 was an attempt to use GENOM's semi-biological
>Boomer technology to produce daikaiju-class combatants more
>quickly and economically than they could be constructed using standard
>Destroid technology. When the money ran out with the prototype
>half-completed, Ikari turned to the WDF, hoping to interest its
>commanders enough that they would fund completion of EVA-00.

And so Gendou Ikari and his Evangelions finally make their appearance in the UFverse (not counting, of course, their cameo in Knights of the Tenth World 2/3). I presume, of course, that he's the father of the UFverse's Shinji Ikari. I also wonder very much if he tried to go on with his version of Project EVA as an anti-GENOM operation after Sonset, and if so, who his lucky (spoken sarcastically) pilots were. (I do not see UF-Rei letting herself get roped into dunking herself in the LCL, and even if that looked like it was going to happen, HK-47 wouldn't allow it, so it all makes me wonder how she met UF-Shinji. Probably after he got kicked out by his Eva-obsessed father and started wandering the spaceways; Rei might have first encountered Shinji brooding over his antique datacrystal player in a concourse at a spaceport somewhere, trying to bum a ride to wherever.)

-Joe-


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Peter Eng
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Feb-14-07, 12:43 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #5
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-07 AT 12:49 PM (EST)
 
>>XV-74 Synthetic Super Battle Trooper
>>
>>Originally developed in the 2280s by the New Japan Strategic Self
>>Defense Force, the XV-74 was devised by maverick technologist Gendou
>>Ikari...
>
>And so Gendou Ikari and his Evangelions finally make their appearance
>in the UFverse (not counting, of course, their cameo in Knights of the
>Tenth World 2/3). I presume, of course, that he's the father of the
>UFverse's Shinji Ikari.

Judging by the timestamps, he's probably Shinji's great-great grandfather, if he's any relation at all. Remember, Blades takes place in 2414. 130 years between developing the XV-74 and Shinji being, oh, sixteen, give or take four years? Seems like a bit much, especially since Gendou's not a likely candidate for Omega-2, and the only other life-extension process that might be used on him is reserved for Mr. Mann.

Peter Eng
--
pointing out a fiddly detail
--
I'm only a Charter Member because of the DCForum upgrade, and because there's no rank below "Clueless F!wit."


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clg
Member since Sep-20-05
108 posts
Feb-14-07, 11:53 PM (EDT)
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18. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #10
 
   >>And so Gendou Ikari and his Evangelions finally make their appearance
>>in the UFverse (not counting, of course, their cameo in Knights of the
>>Tenth World 2/3). I presume, of course, that he's the father of the
>>UFverse's Shinji Ikari.
>
>Judging by the timestamps, he's probably Shinji's great-great
>grandfather, if he's any relation at all. Remember, Blades
>takes place in 2414. 130 years between developing the XV-74 and
>Shinji being, oh, sixteen, give or take four years? Seems like a bit
>much, especially since Gendou's not a likely candidate for Omega-2,
>and the only other life-extension process that might be used on him is
>reserved for Mr. Mann.

Maybe not. Remember that even normal lifespans in the UF-verse are about twice as long as ours (not so long in the late 2200's, perhaps). Figure Gendou is maybe 30 in 2284, maybe 145 when Shinji is born; that's about 72 in our years. It probably puts him out of range for being Shinji's father, but grandfather is possible.

As you note, though, this presumes that they're related at all, which cannot be assumed given the author's predilection for rewriting backstory (and that this is just a throwaway reference).

- Chad

- Chad


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FubarObfusco
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Feb-15-07, 03:21 AM (EDT)
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21. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #5
 
   >>X-9 Ghost Automatic Fighter
>
>The UFverse's version of "The Ultimate Computer" episode on ST:TOS.

... crossed with, of course, Macross Plus.

I'll be surprised if this version sings like Sharon Apple, though.


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Gryphonadmin
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22436 posts
Feb-15-07, 03:44 AM (EDT)
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22. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #21
 
   >>>X-9 Ghost Automatic Fighter
>>
>>The UFverse's version of "The Ultimate Computer" episode on ST:TOS.
>
>... crossed with, of course, Macross Plus.
>
>I'll be surprised if this version sings like Sharon Apple, though.

Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do
I'm half crazy, all for the love of you...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Wedge
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Feb-15-07, 12:37 PM (EDT)
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26. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #22
 
   >>>>X-9 Ghost Automatic Fighter
>>>
>>>The UFverse's version of "The Ultimate Computer" episode on ST:TOS.
>>
>>... crossed with, of course, Macross Plus.
>>
>>I'll be surprised if this version sings like Sharon Apple, though.
>
>Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do
>I'm half crazy, all for the love of you...

Just as long as it's musical taste is a little better than Incubus...



Chad Collier
Smirking Kilrathi
The Captain of the Gravy Train


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MOGSY
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Feb-14-07, 08:21 AM (EDT)
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6. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   This hits all the right notes when it comes to dealing with contractors. (No offense to any out there, but I've been to one too many trade shows)

"What does it do? Well, umm you know, it supports the warfighter, and...stuff"


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Gryphonadmin
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22436 posts
Feb-14-07, 12:51 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #6
 
   >This hits all the right notes when it comes to dealing with
>contractors. (No offense to any out there, but I've been to one too
>many trade shows)
>
>"What does it do? Well, umm you know, it supports the warfighter,
>and...stuff"

Especially while doing the Monster II writeup, I kept flashing back to the sequence from the old Doctor Who episode "The Pirate Planet" in which a furious Fourth Doctor turns to the Pirate Captain and demands, "But what's it for?!"

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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MOGSY
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Feb-14-07, 11:57 PM (EDT)
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19. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #11
 
   >>This hits all the right notes when it comes to dealing with
>>contractors. (No offense to any out there, but I've been to one too
>>many trade shows)
>>
>>"What does it do? Well, umm you know, it supports the warfighter,
>>and...stuff"
>
>Especially while doing the Monster II writeup, I kept flashing
>back to the sequence from the old Doctor Who episode "The
>Pirate Planet" in which a furious Fourth Doctor turns to the Pirate
>Captain and demands, "But what's it for?!"
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

As long as some nitwit doesn't start screaming to you about "metadata" in the middle of mission planning, I think you're good to go. As much as I love those guys, there's days when I want to strangle every contractor I can get my hands on, for pushing new systems before we've learned the current ones, because the number of systems keeps growing, and the number of redundant and incompatible systems increases exponentially, the number of days we have to allocate to teaching how to button mash spirals out of control as we speak in fact, and because they think "efficiencies" is a word.....

Ughhhhh....


"A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week" - Gen George S. Patton, Jr.


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asuffield
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Feb-14-07, 09:01 AM (EDT)
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7. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   >Yeah, yeah, I seem to be on a "silly stuff about mecha"
>bender...

Yes, for about the past fifteen years.


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dbrandon
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221 posts
Feb-14-07, 09:48 AM (EDT)
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8. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #7
 
   >>Yeah, yeah, I seem to be on a "silly stuff about mecha"
>>bender...

>
>Yes, for about the past fifteen years.

This is not necessarily a bad thing.

Dan B,
who enjoys benders of all sorts. "Bite my shiny, metal..."


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asuffield
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Feb-15-07, 03:09 AM (EDT)
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20. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #8
 
   >>>Yeah, yeah, I seem to be on a "silly stuff about mecha"
>>>bender...

>>
>>Yes, for about the past fifteen years.
>
>This is not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't recall anybody suggesting that it was.


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Offsides
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Feb-14-07, 11:03 AM (EDT)
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9. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   >AJACS Veritech Helicopter
>
>To be fair, the computer simulations showed that, with its thruster
>configuration, it would've worked, and the "rotor system" was really
>more of an adjustable vector control system, with adjustable thrusters
>at the tips of the four blades. The fly-by-wire system would have
>been capable of adjusting between rotary-wing and spaceflight modes
>transparently to the pilot, and by all estimations, it would've been a
>fairly capable space combatant. Still, the whole concept was just
>weird, and didn't address any actual need the WDF had,
>so they passed on the idea. For a while it looked like the Royal
>Salusian Armed Forces might buy it, but budget cutbacks in 2179
>finally killed the project altogether.

I've always likeed the AJACS, but I have to agree with your assesment that as an aerospace fighter it was of limited use, expecially since the transformation mechanism was just downright bad (I know - I frame captured it off VHS almost 15 years ago to analyze it. They have a giant hinged armor plate that automagically flips on the underbelly of the thing in chopper mode to become the chest armor in battroid mode - in 3 frames!). Still it was intriguing enough that I tryed to fond a way to salvage it, and ended up sort of merging it with an alpha fighter to get something that was at least a little more practical. If course, I also specified it as primarily a close-air-support craft, so there you have it...

Fun write-ups - I almost thought that your Monster II was based off of the version in Macross II, which looked like it was about the size of the SDF-1 in attack mode :)

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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fb111a
Member since Jul-21-06
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Feb-16-07, 01:16 PM (EDT)
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35. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #9
 
   I've always likeed the AJACS, but I have to agree with your assesment that as an aerospace fighter it was of limited use, expecially since the transformation mechanism was just downright bad (I know - I frame captured it off VHS almost 15 years ago to analyze it.

I've done frame-by-frames of the transformation from it. The AJACS was one of my favorites, too. I saw it filling the kind of role the Harrier does for any space-borne force. Think about it: A V/STOL aerospace system with a decent ground-attack/anti-ship/CAS capability that doesn't need prepared planetary bases for operations.


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trboturtle
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Feb-14-07, 04:01 PM (EDT)
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12. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   What, no one thought about the concept of a Bolo?? THAT would be overkill.....B-)

Craig


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BlackAeronaut
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Feb-14-07, 04:23 PM (EDT)
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13. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #12
 
   No, that's not overkill. That's your armored cavalry that consists of a single unit; The SPARTAN II equivilant of a tank, complete with a witty AI.


Black Aeronaut Technologies
Creative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer
"To the commissary we should go," Yoda declared firmly. "News of this kind a danish requires."


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BlackAeronaut
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Feb-14-07, 04:35 PM (EDT)
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14. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   >XV-74 Synthetic Super Battle Trooper

Too bad for Gendo in the UF-verse. I would love to have seen the EVAs in action in UF though. Perhaps later on down the line? I wonder how an Evangelion would compare to Big-O in size?


Black Aeronaut Technologies
Creative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer
"To the commissary we should go," Yoda declared firmly. "News of this kind a danish requires."


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SpottedKitty
Member since Jun-15-04
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Feb-14-07, 08:33 PM (EDT)
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15. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   >YVB-10 Königsmonster
>
><...>
>
>The YVB-10 Königsmonster (the name means King Monster in
>German) was a proposal by a Niogan company, Bundeskanzler Waffenfabrik
>AG, to develop a Veritech MHP-2.

I'm reminded of the German Maus tank that was built during WW2 (and, some say, put into limited use right at the end). I've seen a photo of one of the prototypes looming over a Panther: the thing was huge. Also, unfortunately, underpowered for its weight, and so heavy it tended to crush roads and bridges.

There's something slightly boggling, though, about a tank main gun so big the coax 88mm would have been just a spotter gun for it...

--
Unable to save the day: File is read-only.


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CdrMike
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Feb-14-07, 10:05 PM (EDT)
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16. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #15
 
   >I'm reminded of the German Maus tank that was built during WW2 (and,
>some say, put into limited use right at the end). I've seen a photo of
>one of the prototypes looming over a Panther: the thing was huge.
>Also, unfortunately, underpowered for its weight, and so heavy it
>tended to crush roads and bridges.
>
>There's something slightly boggling, though, about a tank main gun so
>big the coax 88mm would have been just a spotter gun for it...

Ah, you mean this:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz7.htm

The Panzer VIII Maus, which holds the current record as largest battle tank ever built at 188 tons. To give you some idea, a fully-loaded M1A2 Abrams weighs roughly 67 tons.

'course, that's nothing compared to the P1500 "Ratte":

http://www.kensingtonbooks.com/finditem.cfm?itemid=9384

The Germans didn't classify it as a tank, they classified it as a "land cruiser." Something to be said about a fighting vehicle whose main armament is 2 280mm naval rifled cannons.

--------------------------
CdrMike, Overwatch Reject

"You know, the world could always use more heroes." - Tracer, Overwatch


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BlackAeronaut
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Feb-14-07, 11:26 PM (EDT)
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17. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #16
 
   Good thing no one had thought of Hovercraft at the time. Can you imagine the kind of hell the Nazis could have made of the war if they had several large hovercraft that could act as mobile command centers and heavy artillerary(sp)?


Black Aeronaut Technologies
Creative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer
"To the commissary we should go," Yoda declared firmly. "News of this kind a danish requires."


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Moonsword
Member since Mar-15-22
30 posts
Feb-15-07, 04:09 AM (EDT)
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23. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #16
 
   >'course, that's nothing compared to the P1500 "Ratte":
>
>http://www.kensingtonbooks.com/finditem.cfm?itemid=9384
>
>The Germans didn't classify it as a tank, they classified it as a
>"land cruiser." Something to be said about a fighting vehicle whose
>main armament is 2 280mm naval rifled cannons.

The word you're looking for is "frightening". "Frightening to everything in the area" is a good standby for an expanded definition if desired.

Dear lord, that thing's carrying a pair of 12 inch guns, for Pete's sake! "Land cruiser" is a pretty mild description. (Well, around 11.8 or so, if you want to get technical.) For sheer diameter, that's making a good run at battle cruiser status, although most BCs would mount more guns than that. Still, that is a frightening monstrosity to consider dealing with on a battlefield.


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Tabasco
Member since Dec-4-06
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Feb-15-07, 09:32 AM (EDT)
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24. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #23
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-07 AT 09:39 AM (EST)
 
No kidding. Would the 5in rockets the Thunderbolts and Typhoons carried even scratch that thing? You could forget about most of the land weapons being effective.

About the only saving grace I could see is that there'd only _be_ a few of them, so if you could keep it busy/distracted it might be possible to bypass it.
There was a story I read years ago about how the crew of a Soviet KV1 heavy tank basically parked on a road the Germans were using and just blasted anything that tried to deal with them. The Germans finally ended up using most of an armor regiment as a decoy while bringing up 88mm guns to point blank range.

--------------------
Space for Rent


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Gryphonadmin
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27. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #24
 
   >No kidding. Would the 5in rockets the Thunderbolts and Typhoons
>carried even scratch that thing?

Rockets, perhaps not, but aerial bombing would reduce a Landkreuzer to rubble in minutes. It would have nowhere to run and no place to hide, and blind pilots couldn't miss it. An armored vehicle on that scale built with 1940s engine technology would have a maximum speed in the "man on foot" range and the maneuverability of a small town, and with that vast expanse of deck, it'd be a dive bomber's dream target.

Like many last-ditch Nazi weapon ideas, the Ratte was all sizzle and no steak.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Moonsword
Member since Mar-15-22
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Feb-15-07, 10:53 PM (EDT)
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31. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #27
 
   Ouch. Yeah, that would not have worked very well. Might have been an interesting thing to see, though.


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CdrMike
Member since Feb-20-05
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Feb-15-07, 06:36 PM (EDT)
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29. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #23
 
   >Dear lord, that thing's carrying a pair of 12 inch guns, for Pete's
>sake! "Land cruiser" is a pretty mild description. (Well, around
>11.8 or so, if you want to get technical.) For sheer diameter, that's
>making a good run at battle cruiser status, although most BCs would
>mount more guns than that. Still, that is a frightening
>monstrosity to consider dealing with on a battlefield.

You think the Ratte was bad, wait til you see the specs for the P1500 "Monster":

http://members.tripod.com/~fingolfen/superheavy/p1500.html

Basically, Der Führer ordered Krupp (brains behind the "Maus" and "Ratte") to take one of his 800mm Dora E rail guns and put it on tank treads. This thing made the "Ratte" seem like a light-weight.

And that's not to mention the fact that the Nazis were working on everything from tilt-rotor aircraft, strap-on helicopter packs, hydrofoil transports, and even a manned space program. Granted, alot of it was only on paper, but a great deal more actually made it to the prototype stage before the war ended.

--------------------------
CdrMike, Overwatch Reject

"You know, the world could always use more heroes." - Tracer, Overwatch


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McFortner
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Feb-15-07, 11:21 AM (EDT)
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25. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #16
 
   >The Germans didn't classify it as a tank, they classified it as a
>"land cruiser." Something to be said about a fighting vehicle whose
>main armament is 2 280mm naval rifled cannons.

Dear heavens, that thing is a monster. Could be a prototype for a Bolo!

And just think, that thing probably got about 15 gallons to the mile.

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-15-07, 06:25 PM (EDT)
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28. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   D'oh, I forgot one!

VF-1U Sea Valkyrie

The Sea Valkyrie was not, as its name might seem to imply, a version of the VF-1 designed for carrier duty. After all, all Valkyries are built for carrier duty, not only in space but on the water, and the WDF routinely conducted flight operations at sea when dealing with situations on planets with oceans. No, the Sea Valkyrie, developed as part of Stonewell Bellcom's Valkyrie Mark XXXII project in 2129, was something else altogether... something much weirder. The Sea Valkyrie was a submersible VF-1.

Yes, you read that right. The VF-1U was designed and built to operate, in all three modes, underwater. Its superstructure was reinforced to handle ocean pressures. All its systems were specially sealed and treated to resist salt water corrosion. Its sensor package was augmented with powerful active and passive sonar systems. Its engines were configured with a special "cool impeller" mode, enabling the pilot to convert them with the flick of a switch from air-breathing fusion turbines to low-noise hydrojets. Even the weapons systems were adapted for undersea combat; Stonewell Bellcom engineers developed an underwater version of the GU-11 gun pod, as well as short- and medium-range torpedoes that could attach to and launch from the VF-1's standard munitions rails.

The idea was a fairly bold one. Engineers envisioned a scenario in which VF-1s being used in a wet conflict could carry out their standard airborne functions, and then - in pursuit of, say, an enemy submarine or submersible attack craft - dive into the sea and continue the fight. At the battle's end, the Sea Valkyries could then leap from the waves, like sporting porpoises, switch their engines back to flight mode, and wing their way back to their base carrier.

As it happens, this idea is not as far-fetched as it seems. Some commonly known mecha - Zentraedi battle pods, for instance - can fight underwater, and at least one of the enemies the WDF faced during the early Golden Age actually had flying attack submarines that could and did engage WDF forces in both mediums. The Sea Valkyrie, developed as a counter to exactly the kind of force, distinguished itself as an effective, if bizarre, weapons system.

The VF-1U wasn't perfect. For one thing, it couldn't operate in space; the modifications to the engines that enabled the underwater mode required the removal of the systems that make the regular Valkyrie's engines work in a vacuum. For another, it had a maximum depth (about 500 feet) below which it ran the risk of losing hull integrity - posing the danger of leaks admitting seawater into delicate systems, possible cockpit flooding, even complete implosion if the vehicle went too deep. The torpedoes, especially the medium-range Mark 14 that replaced the regular Valkyrie's heavy antiair missiles, had some guidance and detonator problems, and were never as reliable as WDF pilots would have liked. And the mental adjustment involved in switching from aerial to undersea combat wasn't something all the pilots who tried it could really get their heads around.

Still, under certain conditions, the 30 VF-1Us produced proved their worth. They were a combat vehicle with a distinctly quirky niche, but they filled that niche very well, and on the rare occasions when the Golden Age WDF dusted them off and put them to use for special tasks, they acquitted themselves well. The few surviving veteran pilots who have the right to wear the Golden Trident (as the Sea Valkyrie pilot qualification badge was informally known) may do so with pride. They took one of the WDF's weirdest weapons to war and made it back alive - if not necessarily dry.


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Tabasco
Member since Dec-4-06
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Feb-15-07, 07:40 PM (EDT)
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30. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #28
 
   The Mark 14 rides again!

I guess there's something about that number that just does bad things to torpedoes. :)

I can believe that the mental adjustment would be a nightmare. Granted you're still fighting in three dimensions, but beyond that...

--------------------
Space for Rent


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Kathy
Member since Apr-16-06
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Feb-16-07, 00:04 AM (EDT)
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32. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #30
 
  
>I can believe that the mental adjustment would be a nightmare.
>Granted you're still fighting in three dimensions, but beyond that...


I think its more to do with the adjustment between "I am the fastest coolest thing around to "lets go have a drunken brawl in fresh custard whilst wearing sunglasses" in terms of the way the mecha would react in the two mediums, recalling most pilots are used to two media - vacuum and air, water might just strain them a little.

The visibility would be a bit of a non starter, and the sonar etc would report tactical data in a very different manner to the more standard radar kitouts used by the pilots of ye good old fashioned vf1 "brownie"

sounds like fun though

Kathy


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MOGSY
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Feb-16-07, 00:17 AM (EDT)
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33. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #32
 
   >
>>I can believe that the mental adjustment would be a nightmare.
>>Granted you're still fighting in three dimensions, but beyond that...
>
>

You know, with all the demands on these guys, essentially being qualified in 3 full-on weapons systems at the same time, (air, land, space, infantry, CAS, BFM, counter-maritime strike)...

Most. Multi-tasked pilots. Ever. Training has to be a nightmare...thank god in the future everyone lives longer and is a lot smarter because I don't think one could actually get _good_ at combat in more than one arena (but of course, our hero aren't run of the mill people, and this IS space opera afterall...)

I'm trying to think, just for a second how the hell you'd actually train somebody to fight in this thing AND keep them good at regular flying ops...that's a lot on their plate.


"A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week" - Gen George S. Patton, Jr.


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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-16-07, 01:01 AM (EDT)
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34. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #33
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-07 AT 12:47 PM (EST)
 
>You know, with all the demands on these guys, essentially being
>qualified in 3 full-on weapons systems at the same time, (air, land,
>space, infantry, CAS, BFM, counter-maritime strike)...
>
>Most. Multi-tasked pilots. Ever. Training has to be a
>nightmare...

It helps extraordinarily that WDF pilots have virtually unlimited stick time. They have maximums in terms of hours flown per day, and minimum rest times before scheduled duty shifts, but beyond that - as long as there isn't a general combat alert on and the carrier's not preparing to transit FTL - if a WDF pilot wants to strap on and take a training flight, try out some new tactics, work on gunnery or maneuvers, mess with sensor techniques, or just fart around and pile up hours, that's perfectly OK. Not for nothing were experienced Golden Age WDF pilots some of the highest-time throttle jockeys around.

During his career as an active fighter pilot, Gryphon averaged around 30 flight hours a week, and that doesn't include simulator time. Not all of that was Valkyrie time, since he insisted (for various masochistic reasons) on keeping his VF-6 qual current as well, but the VF-1 was by far his ride of choice and he logged probably 90% of his time in one.

Of course, he was also SDF-17's executive officer, which cut into his free time. Golden Age pilots without other responsibilities routinely bettered that 30-hour figure. Miria Sterling practically lived in her Valkyrie back in the day. Gryphon once joked that her first daughter, Komilia, was conceived in the cockpit of either Miria's VF-1 or Max's, and neither of them would deny it.

The thing is, they could do that kind of thing (er, racking up a lot of flight time, not necessarily conceiving offspring at the controls) back in those days for two reasons:

1) Cost was no object whatsoever. The Golden Age WDF defined deep-pocket backing, so things pilots in normal forces weren't permitted to do because of the expense - like fly the jets around for several hours every day if they wanted - were not only allowed but not even thought of. Hell, missiles and GU-11 ammo were cheap just because of the volume they were produced in, and Veritech fighters don't burn expensive fuel anyway.

2) These were not your normal military pilots. A lot of people liked to disparage the old-timey WDF as amateurs, and to be fair, they were - in the old-fashioned sense of the world, people who did what they did just out of love for the doing of it. Sure, they were getting paid, but to a lot of WDF pilots, that was just a bonus. As Gryphon famously said in a 2092 documentary on the WDF's 100th anniversary, "This [pointing into the cockpit of Eight-Ball One] is my office. You tell me who lives better than me." They lived aboard ship, not just during deployments, but practically all the time. They approached being starfighter pilots with the same mindset they had once applied to being computer geeks or anime fans. They were space combat nerds.

Another thing to consider is that the WDF's pilots were not routinely called upon to do weird things like fly the Sea Valkyrie. It was literally something they fielded, inventing the tactics on the fly, for a particular engagement that required its strange capabilities. More than 90% of a Valkyrie pilot's operational time in the Golden Age was spent prosecuting the VF-1's primary design role, aerospace superiority. Most of the rest of that time went into various more conventional secondary uses, like the strike role (and only a small percentage of active VF-1 pilots kept current in Strike Valkyrie operations - most of that work went to the dedicated VA-1 and VB-9 squadrons) and CAS (again, something more often done by Judicators and Legios teams).

Yeah, a Veritech fighter is a complex multi-role weapons system that requires a lot of intensive training, and a certain kind of pilot, to succeed. But the WDF was a small force with the luxury of extreme selectivity. Only the very best-suited pilots - which is not to say, necessarily, the best pilots, by the standards of a more conventional force like the real-life USAF - ever got to fly a VF-1 or VF-6 for the Golden Age Wedge Defense Force. Those people got to the point where they knew that weapon inside, out, and backward, and could make it, as Princess Koriand'r put it, both cry and sing.

End result? You ask someone like that - a hard-core, fully-trained, high-time Golden Age Valkyrie jock like Miria, or Terror Currier - to take her bird into an unfamiliar environment or prosecute an unfamiliar goal, and she is going to bitch and complain and probably do, by her usual standards, a half-assed job of it... but by that point, she's so good at her job, her half-assed job is better than a lot of forces' elites.

>I'm trying to think, just for a second how the hell you'd actually
>train somebody to fight in this thing AND keep them good at regular
>flying ops...that's a lot on their plate.

Well, that's just it - it's not like anybody in the WDF was ever current on the VF-1U. It was the kind of thing that got hauled out of the broom closet once in a full moon, usually to a round of groans and "oh, here we go"s in the briefing room, and a lot of last-minute simulator time to try and achieve something vaguely like competence before the torpedoes started flying for real. Not all of them managed it. As Erik Swimm ruefully noted in a documentary about the operation in which the Sea Valkyrie saw its most prominent use, "Like most seafood, it's kind of an acquired taste." :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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fb111a
Member since Jul-21-06
84 posts
Feb-16-07, 01:21 PM (EDT)
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36. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #34
 
   How has the WDF budget changed from the Golden Age to "Future Imperfect"?


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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-16-07, 01:49 PM (EDT)
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37. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #36
 
   >How has the WDF budget changed from the Golden Age to "Future
>Imperfect"?

Well, the FI-era WDF is a much larger force, so in absolute terms it has a much larger budget, but it's spread over a much bigger area, so to speak. They're hardly taking austerity measures, but they're not as free with the cash as they were back in the day. (Plus, a larger force has to be more regimented than things were back then, so just letting people go and jump into their fighters whenever they feel like it wouldn't really work out any more.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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fb111a
Member since Jul-21-06
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Feb-16-07, 02:22 PM (EDT)
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38. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #0
 
   I suppose I'll stick my neck out and ask:

Were there fixed-configuration starfighters that also never quite made it, be it failed protoypes like the Spartas, or just never purchased for one reason or another like the AJACS?


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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-16-07, 02:28 PM (EDT)
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39. "RE: Defense Quarterly magazine, Spring 2408"
In response to message #38
 
   >Were there fixed-configuration starfighters that also never quite made
>it, be it failed protoypes like the Spartas, or just never purchased
>for one reason or another like the AJACS?

Almost certainly. Offhand, I doubt the WDF would have bought the Rapier II, for instance. A fine starfighter (the Rapier I) ruined by the crappiest cockpit sightlines in the history of aviation.

--G.
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