We didn't find out the actual title until some time after the episode went out (like, a year or so). They're not printed in the game docs or anything.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

That would require some serious modifications to my old Saturn. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

May the gods of emulation smile upon thee and show thee the true path.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Console? I don't need no steeeenking console!"

The 'true path' involves equipment costing an order of magnitude more than the original, and trying to play Megaman with a keyboard?

I think I'll stick to the false path, then.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

<shrug> I tend to only play the RPG's... and I'd buy the equipment anyway, may as well have an additonal use for it:)

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

Polychrome

-Craig

Or just a copy for the PC.

Dave Bretton.
Sysadmin, Space Cadet, Headache Monster

Eh? Sorry to revive a dead topic here, but shouldn't it either be for EVA-00 vs. Zeruel to complete the JERCL Cycle? After all, Rei was in EVA-03... I'm certain that having its head fall off would have severely pissed Jon off, but it's not exactly his EVA. (Moreover, after re-reading the sequence, it seems like it would make a lot more sense to have EVA-00's head fall off instead of EVA-03, considering that Moloch did get his head crushed and Orcus just got blown up because Rei reconsidered her course of action.)
-Eliot "Probably going to get in trouble for bringing this up" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Well, as originally planned (and as it was planned at the time we wrote the MOSAIC liner notes), EVA-03 was still going to be Jon's unit. The idea to have Rei and Jon switch was something that came up and struck us as sensible as we went along.

(Basically, it occurred to us that NERV would try swapping their Evas as an experiment... and the synch test results would be striking enough that they'd keep them swapped. And I think, in the end, it worked out much better this way.)

--truss.

I agree that it does sound more sensible, looking back from the end of the series... although I do wonder, if Moloch recognized Rei as an ally in 3:8 and was willing to sacrifice everything remained of himself to help her, why did he resist her prior efforts to synchronize? Had he, like Lucifer, not recovered enough of himself to understand and recognize Reilael?

>(Basically, it occurred to us that NERV would try swapping their Evas
>as an experiment... and the synch test results would be striking
>enough that they'd keep them swapped. And I think, in the end,
>it worked out much better this way.)

Aha. One thing I do still wonder, though: Did EVA-03 therefore have the same role that Jon took in Zeruel's attack (i.e., getting his head almost-literally handed to him)? If so, was Orcus originally going to "rescue" Jon in the same fashion, by ejecting the entry plug? Doing so would imply some identity remained in the production-model EVAs... something that I can definitely see as possible, but apparently not a fact of the series. Rei pretty much clinched that possibility by calling EVA-03 "hollow". Or was Jon simply going to use his brain and eject himself?
-Eliot "Asking far too many questions for my own good" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Well, you have to understand one distinction, here. Lucifer's spirit, for lack of a better word, was in tatters... but Moloch was, quite resoundingly, dead.

Moloch's consciousness was such a formidable one that his animated corpse (that's what EVA-00 was, when you get down to it) still had whispers of his consciousness in it. A whisper that was only capable of something like instinct (and even that may be too strong a word for it), not actual thought. And since Moloch was infernal, not divine, those "instincts" increasingly pushed back against Rei as she became more aware of what she was. Early on, there wasn't enough divine awareness left in Rei to trigger that sort of conflict.

Moloch (or what was left of him) never really became aware of anything until the very, very end... when Rei's purpose, thoughts, and internal Fire resonated so strongly with what Moloch's had once been (and what he aspired to be -- remember, he was to achieve Redemption alongside Lucifer) that the whole of his consciousness reassembled itself for the briefest of instants.

(I love how that sequence came out.)

>Aha. One thing I do still wonder, though: Did EVA-03 therefore have
>the same role that Jon took in Zeruel's attack (i.e., getting his head
>almost-literally handed to him)? If so, was Orcus originally going to
>"rescue" Jon in the same fashion, by ejecting the entry plug? Doing
>so would imply some identity remained in the production-model EVAs...
>something that I can definitely see as possible, but apparently not a
>fact of the series. Rei pretty much clinched that possibility by
>calling EVA-03 "hollow". Or was Jon simply going to use his brain and
>eject himself?

I think he was going to eject himself. That scene was only partially written (and only sketched out in broad strokes) by the time we decided to make the switch. So we may not have gotten that far.

EVA-03's head was going to come clean off, though, I can tell you that. :)

--truss.

It's entirely conceivable that the Production Models have an automated or semi-automated ejection system. That doesn't require the units to have any sort of consciousness or self-awareness; just software in the onboard systems that says, "If damage level is X, this unit is lost; eject entry plug to prevent pilot death from sympathetic shock."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Am I correct in assuming, then, that Jon had an easier time synchronizing with Moloch because of a shared infernal trait?

>It's entirely conceivable that the Production Models have an automated
>or semi-automated ejection system. That doesn't require the units to
>have any sort of consciousness or self-awareness; just software in the
>onboard systems that says, "If damage level is X, this unit is lost;
>eject entry plug to prevent pilot death from sympathetic shock."

Aw, but I wanted to see Orcus do the whole roaring-1:1 synchronization berserk frenzy of destruction thing... It's not entirely beyond the scope of imagination to think that the Production Models were given a full consciousness, although it is a lot less likely than with Lucifer and Moloch. Certainly, as the canon is established, that's not the case, but it wouldn't contradict canon to say that they were conscious and at least peripherally self-aware.
-Eliot "I want an EVA-03 with Head-Popping Action..." Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

FWIW, that explanation doesn't spring from In Nomine. In fact, we've twisted and stretched the rules for Remnants rather severely throughout NXE, for the sake of a better story.

As a general rule, if any mechanic regarding Celestials becomes a prerequisite for understanding what's going on, we explain it (explicitly) in the story. The exception being when you're not supposed to understand what's going on... yet.

But fear not, we'll let you in on the rest of the secrets eventually. :)

>Am I correct in assuming, then, that Jon had an easier time
>synchronizing with Moloch because of a shared infernal trait?

Yes. What was left of Moloch resonated with Jon's infernal nature, rather than conflicting with it.

There's also the fact that the production models aren't as easy to work with. When you're piloting a production Eva, you have to do all of the work yourself, because the unit has no consciousness whatsoever. You're basically projecting your own will onto a second body, and that's quite a strain.

(Though not as much of a strain as the stunt Tabris pulled near the end of 3:8. That took pretty much every ounce of Essence the boy had left. Hell of a trick, though. :)

>Aw, but I wanted to see Orcus do the whole roaring-1:1 synchronization
>berserk frenzy of destruction thing... It's not entirely beyond the
>scope of imagination to think that the Production Models were given a
>full consciousness, although it is a lot less likely than with Lucifer
>and Moloch.

Well, it may not be beyond the scope of imagination... but in the world of NXE, I can tell you that it is definitively not the case. The Production Models are 100% spiritually inert. They will offer no assistance and no resistance to a pilot attempting to synchronize with them, and they will not move without a pilot (or some extraordinary external influence). This is also true of the SEELE Advanced Production Models.

You're not cleared to know about the Archangelions, yet. ;)

--truss.

One last question: it's obvious from Dan Ellison's thoughts in 3:9 that the Brothers Ellison share the infernal traits with him. Do the Sisters Ayanami share the same infernal traits? The fact that they have the green eyes/black hair of the Ellisons would imply it, and considering the massive failure that the first Rei clone was, I doubt that SEELE would try to clone an angel again...

>Well, it may not be beyond the scope of imagination... but in the
>world of NXE, I can tell you that it is definitively not the case.

That I was clear on. Really, there was everything in canon to pretty much blow that theory out of the water - the only reason I brought it up as a possibility was because of what it would mean to have Orcus eject Jon instead of Moloch.

>The Production Models are 100% spiritually inert. They will offer no
>assistance and no resistance to a pilot attempting to synchronize with
>them, and they will not move without a pilot (or some extraordinary
>external influence).

And Tabris managed to do exactly that in 3:8, right. I'd be correct in assuming that the infernal elements of Lucifer and Moloch (the origin of the EVAs, after all) are similarly nonexistent in the production models?

>You're not cleared to know about the Archangelions, yet. ;)

But I took my firearms training! ;>
-Eliot "Kind of ironic that they referred to Lucifer as the Second Angel" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

You are correct (on all counts).

>And Tabris managed to do exactly that in 3:8, right. I'd be correct
>in assuming that the infernal elements of Lucifer and Moloch (the
>origin of the EVAs, after all) are similarly nonexistent in the
>production models?

That makes you 2 for 2, yes.

--truss.

>You are correct (on all counts).

That makes me wonder: why did SEELE try to clone Reilael in the first place? They knew that her traits would interfere with the infernal nature of at least two of the EVAs (they may or may not have known ahead of time that the Production EVAs would have the infernal nature), something that Natla would have been well aware of. Was it simply because of her obedience, or was there something else there?
-Eliot "If I don't stop asking questions, I think Truss is going to kill me" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

There was something else there.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

...and I take it from the cryptic answer that you're not going to tell me what. Ah, well, at least that means I wasn't being totally dense, right? ;>
-Eliot "Now to figure out why Natla would have wanted Reilael" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Ok, now we venture into areas more speculative, so it's possible that Gryph will override me on some of this. But here's my view of the situation.

Natla wouldn't have been aware of any compatibility problems beforehand, because... well, frankly, nothing like this had ever been attempted before. And on top of that, it wasn't really her experiment to begin with. As stated in 3:6,

"NERV was founded largely through the efforts of my late wife,
Dr. Yui Ikari," he went on, raising his face to his audience. "She
was a warm, caring human being who saw the possibilities of extracting
good from anything - even the disaster that wiped out half of
humanity. The organization's focus was to better the human condition
through study of the creatures and phenomena of the Second Impact,
and, since we thought the connection between the two events implicit,
the Hidden War. Only after her death was it co-opted by SEELE and the
United Nations and changed into a hatchery for weapons of mass
destruction."

Natla's thoughts at the time were probably that there would be so little left of Lucifer that it wouldn't present much of a problem... it would be functionally inert. Or, at least, enough so to be usable until proper Production Models could be created from its design. (As for Moloch... well, she saw him die. So no worries there.) Remember -- it's not the Eva's physical vessel that is infernal. It's the mind inside it.

As for "why clone her in the first place?" To create a blank slate. Natla had to know that as long as Rei lived, she might be able to remember some of her past. (She probably never suspected she'd regain as much of her power as she has, though.) If that were to happen, I don't think she'd be of much use as a pilot... Natla could keep her captive, yes, but you can't force someone to synchronize with an Eva. But clone Rei, and you've got a being who (probably?) has her ability to control an Eva, with a mind that could be "programmed" however Natla liked.

As it turned out, Rei's first clone was only around long enough for a single synch test with EVA-01. (As noted in 3:9, Lucifer recognized her as somehow familiar, and absorbed her in an attempt to figure out some of his own past.) Natla, at that point, gave up on straight cloning and instructed her people to come up with a way to twist Rei's genetic code into something inherently demonic... and, eventually, they came up with the other Ayanamis.

--truss.

That I was clear on... I just wonder why she bothered twisting the Ayanmis when she had the perfectly-salvageable Ellisons to work with. Seems like a little more work than is absolutely necessary... not that I mind, considering that it's perfectly plausible, and the end of 3:6 would be a lot more disturbing if there were only Ellison clones around...
-Eliot "Think I blew a fuse on that comment" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

My guess about the Archangelions is that they don't have per-se consciousnesses of their own... what they DO have are amplifications of the celestial and infernal resonances (note lack of caps, IN fans) of their pilots.

(And of course, right after posting, I realized that Asuka is ALSO an Archangelion pilot, which blows my theory pretty much totally out of the water unless there's something about her we don't know, or she becomes a Soldier of Gabriel, for her fiery temper and hair, and thus acquires a Celestial affiliation that translates to ARC-02.)

Either that, or there's going to be some SERIOUS negotiations between NERV and the Celestial Forces to get Michael to inhabit an Archangelion or bestow a part of his Essence upon it. I have no theories on why ARC-00 is Azrael... or why the Infernal is piloting the ARC named after the Archangel, and the Cherub's piloting the one with the slightly more... shadow-laden... name. :)

(Again, ARC-02 being Asuka's makes perfect sense, as in IN, Gabriel is the Archangel of Fire, something of a rogue, and totally batshit... and the Sohryuu-Langley women are NOT known for stability.)

Regarding "why clone Reilael," I think Natla's just a sicko who gets a perverse thrill out of taking something originally celestial, breaking it utterly, and warping it into a tool of Hell's agenda... that's really pretty much in keeping with the Habbalite nature, though a Shedite might have more, uh, explicitly nasty fun with the process.

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Silicon Valley, CA

Naw, Natla's a wonderful, lovable person that's just screwing with everyone to try and get attention. At the end, everyone's going to have one big group hug.
-Eliot "I'm not saying more, because I have a joke that runs something like that" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Spoken like someone who groks the Habbalah mentality. That's a messed up group of demons, let me tell you.

Question: I was curious as to why no angels under Christopher's command have showed up (his Word is Children). I answer myself with the fact that, given the events of the situation, there are few that could be considered children working for NERV. They have been forced into adulthood by the conflict. But, with the number of innocents in Worcester, I could see at least on Cherubim of Christopher on the scene.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to SJG as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com
(and occasionally as Cooper, Cherubim of Christopher)

Yeah, well... that too. I never said that I told you all of her reasons. ;)

--truss.

I'm envisioning, in the metacontinuity universe, a toy company starting production on a hundred thousand Unit 03s with pop-top heads when they get word that there's been a last-minute script change. n_n

At which point they become ridiculously valuable items at cons and on eBay ("SUPER RARE EVA-03 WITH BATTLE DAMAGE HEAD L@@K!!!!").

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Or they could be a consistent and annoying rumor in the fan community, despite never actually existing... "I swear to God, I had a Headpopping EVA-03 when I was a kid!" "Anybody can insert a little spring to make a head pop out!" "Youse guys wanna buy a blue Bluestreak?"
-Eliot "Sorry, sorta" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

"Youse guys wanna buy a blue Bluestreak?"

From 'Cybertronian: The Unofficial Transformers Recognition Guide, Volume 1' (from Antarctic Press, and pretty nifty AND trivia-packed, I recommend it for the Transformers fan):

"While an actual blue version (with silver hood) was sold as a Diaclone {ed: another toy line} in Japan, there has yet to be definitive evidence of a blue Fairlady Z that was actually sold as Bluestreak in Transformers packaging. All claimes of a blue Bluestreak to date have turned out to be unsupported memories, Japanese or Euro-released Diaclones, or owner-repainted versions. Confusion arises from the use of the blue version in the instruction photos."

The book is, I will note, dedicated to the memory of Scatman Crothers and Chris Latta.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"

Given that I got an original Bluestreak about 2 weeks after they hit the shelves at Toys'R'Us, and I distinctly remember it being gray (albeit perhaps a bilt more like gunmetal blue in just the right light), I doubt that any "true" blue Bluestreaks made it to this country in any official manner...

Offsides

#include <transformers.h>

Y'know, you're probably the only person who talks about remembering that Bluestreak wasn't blue... The official stance of both the company and the fan community is that there is no such thing as a Real Blue Bluestreak. Having not seen a Bluestreak for years on end, I don't know if it would look gunmetal blue in the right light, but if so, I'd write it off as an interesting coincidence and leave it at that.

That's the other EVA toy that could be never released - a blue EVA-06, since all of the other SEELE EVAs are white. "No, really, EPU produced a blue EVA-06 years ago!" "They were all white!" "Youse guys wanna buy a head-popping EVA-03?"
-Eliot "At least, I remember EVA-05 as being white" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

And there's no such thing as coincidence - just random events with the same seed :)

Offsides

#include <random.h>

Actually, that's the so-top-secret-even-Gryphon's-not-cleared NXE/UF crossover.

You see, only EVA-02 is a Production Model. EVA-00 and EVA-01 were scraped up from the Second Impact. And EVA-03...

EVA-03 is a top-secret experiment by Andrew "Android" Petrarca (of the UF continuity) to create a hyperdimensional Pez dispensor. You see, his original prototype was far too big to use the traditional pocket size...

--rR

. . .

Wait, no it's not. It's needlessly complicated."

The Simpsons quote seemed to fit...
-Eliot "Bad lemur! Type what I say!" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.