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Eyrie Productions, Unlimited

Subject: "Disagreement in Principle"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Gryphonadmin
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Dec-29-13, 07:57 PM (EST)
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"Disagreement in Principle"
 
   Over in the discussion of the UF mini Agreement in Principle, this happened.

Pasha said:
>><1> Merc, I *really* wanna read what you have to think about NXE.

And then Merc said:
>AhahahahahaHAhahaHAha.

N.B. What Pasha doesn't know is that the entire conversation this ill-advised undertaking would engender has already happened, in person, somewhere in the public spaces of a hotel not far from the Pentagon in about 1998, between a weary and bewildered yours truly (who was just in the "I think I may be coming down with something" stage of what ended up being an epic bout of budget airline syndrome) and a younger and, imagine it, more aggressive Merc.

Who was wearing a T-shirt that said MEGAZONE AND GRYPHON ARE EVIL. JUST SAY NO TO EYRIE PRODUCTIONS.

Really.

This is a little like if Reagan had shown up for the Reykjavik summit wearing a DEATH TO COMMIES lapel button, but surprisingly, I have vague and illness-corroded memories of it turning out reasonably all right by the end.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Disagreement in Principle [View All] Gryphonadmin Dec-29-13 TOP
  RE: Disagreement in Principle Mercutio Dec-29-13 1
     RE: Disagreement in Principle Gryphonadmin Dec-29-13 2
         RE: Disagreement in Principle The Traitor Dec-29-13 3
             RE: Disagreement in Principle Gryphonadmin Dec-29-13 4
                 RE: Disagreement in Principle The Traitor Dec-30-13 5
                     RE: Disagreement in Principle MuninsFire Dec-30-13 6
                         RE: Disagreement in Principle Offsides Dec-30-13 7
                         RE: Disagreement in Principle Mercutio Jan-01-14 11
                             RE: Disagreement in Principle Nathan Jan-01-14 12
                             RE: Disagreement in Principle Gryphonadmin Jan-01-14 14
                             RE: Disagreement in Principle MuninsFire Jan-01-14 18
                                 RE: Disagreement in Principle Nova Floresca Jan-01-14 19
                                     RE: Disagreement in Principle MuninsFire Jan-01-14 20
                                         RE: Disagreement in Principle Gryphonadmin Jan-02-14 21
                                         RE: Disagreement in Principle The Traitor Jan-02-14 22
                                             RE: Disagreement in Principle MuninsFire Jan-02-14 23
                                             RE: Disagreement in Principle The Traitor Jan-02-14 24
                                             RE: Disagreement in Principle twipper Jan-02-14 25
                                             RE: Disagreement in Principle Mephronmoderator Jun-03-14 36
                         RE: Disagreement in Principle twipper Jan-01-14 17
                         RE: Disagreement in Principle dstar Jan-13-14 34
                             RE: Disagreement in Principle Meagen Jan-14-14 35
             RE: Disagreement in Principle Meridias Dec-31-13 9
             RE: Disagreement in Principle Mercutio Jan-01-14 10
                 RE: Disagreement in Principle Gryphonadmin Jan-01-14 13
                 RE: Disagreement in Principle Peter Eng Jan-01-14 15
                     RE: Disagreement in Principle The Traitor Jan-01-14 16
                 RE: Disagreement in Principle Croaker Jan-06-14 26
         RE: Disagreement in Principle Mephronmoderator Dec-31-13 8
     RE: Disagreement in Principle BLUE Jan-09-14 27
         RE: Disagreement in Principle Offsides Jan-10-14 28
             RE: Disagreement in Principle MuninsFire Jan-10-14 29
                 RE: Disagreement in Principle Gryphonadmin Jan-10-14 30
                     RE: Disagreement in Principle The Traitor Jan-10-14 31
                         RE: Disagreement in Principle BeardedFerret Jan-12-14 32
                             RE: Disagreement in Principle DaPatman89 Jan-12-14 33

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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
940 posts
Dec-29-13, 08:21 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #0
 
   >Over in the discussion of the UF mini Agreement in Principle,
>this happened.
>
>Pasha said:
>>><1> Merc, I *really* wanna read what you have to think about NXE.
>
>And then Merc said:
>>AhahahahahaHAhahaHAha.
>
>N.B. What Pasha doesn't know is that the entire conversation
>this ill-advised undertaking would engender has already happened,
>in person, somewhere in the public spaces of a hotel not far
>from the Pentagon

The Hyatt Regency Crystal City.

>in about 1998,

2001, I believe. It certainly wasn't in 1998; this happened at Katsucon, which wasn't there in '98.

>between a weary and bewildered yours
>truly (who was just in the "I think I may be coming down with
>something" stage of what ended up being an epic bout of budget airline
>syndrome) and a younger and, imagine it, more aggressive Merc.
>
>Who was wearing a T-shirt that said MEGAZONE AND GRYPHON ARE EVIL.
>JUST SAY NO TO EYRIE PRODUCTIONS.

Hey, let the historical record show that the first sentence was on the front and the second was on the back of that t-shirt. It wasn't all on one side. :)

I honestly don't know what I was thinking. Well, no. That's a foul lie. I know exactly what I was thinking, namely, that EPU were the 400-pound gorilla of the anime fanfiction world and I could attract some attention by throwing rocks at them. I may not have been willing to admit that even to myself at the time.

Also let the record show that Megazone was, as I recall, amused to the point he asked me if I had one in his size. I did not. Megazone is a robust man. He could probably have broken me in two by sneezing on me.

>Really.
>
>This is a little like if Reagan had shown up for the Reykjavik summit
>wearing a DEATH TO COMMIES lapel button,

I would bet real money he considered that.

>but surprisingly, I have
>vague and illness-corroded memories of it turning out reasonably all
>right by the end.

It did!

We covered some of this ground back in my "Hey, how you guys doing, great to be here, I'd like to pre-apologize for being an idiot" introduction thread on the forums last May, but to actually discuss things that are relevant to NXE, I recall three things.

Thing the first was Ben being rather forceful on the topic of DJ not being a self-insert, because his track record clearly showed that he wasn't at all shy about not even bothering to file the serial numbers off his author avatars. He was rather irked about it, as I recall, wishing that people would simply accuse him of writing a Sue, which was at least a colorable accusation.

Ben then segued into acting out about thirty seconds worth of "If Ben Hutchins were commanding NERV" for the benefit of the group. The line "Hey, everyone. Hey Misato, Ritsuko, looking good. Let's get this meeting started. I'd like you all to meet my son, Shinji. First item on the agenda, can anyone tell me why I've named my son Shinji?" was uttered.

(In hindsight, it probably should have been obvious you were getting a bit loopy, Chief.)

The second was Ben's firm commitment to the idea that all mission briefings and staff meetings at NERV would end with mandatory tacos. Not voluntary tacos; mandatory tacos.

The third was Ben and everyone within earshot evangelizing (yes, yes, you see what I did there) me about X-Com for awhile.

After that the conversation wandered over to UF for a bit, and then eventually we (there was like a big group of us, I know Zoner and Overstreet were there, pretty sure Doc as well) talked about the WEG Star Wars RPG for like an hour. I tried to convince Ben that Largo would have built himself some Torpedo Spheres to escort the AT&T, sort of a Christmas Ornament style arrangement, wanting the galaxy to look at his set of enormous balls, while Overstreet was firmly of the opinion that aesthetically, Largo was the kind of guy who would just want the one big impressive monolithic thing and cluttering it up with escorts wouldn't be his style.

... dammit, Hutchins. Now I kinda-sorta do want to go back over NXE and do some review work on it. What have you wrought, man?

This has been your bi-yearly "people who were reading fanfiction in the 1990s" retrospective.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
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Dec-29-13, 09:10 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #1
 
   >The second was Ben's firm commitment to the idea that all mission
>briefings and staff meetings at NERV would end with mandatory tacos.
>Not voluntary tacos; mandatory tacos.

I still maintain that this wise and prudent policy would have saved a lot of people a lot of heartache.

>... dammit, Hutchins. Now I kinda-sorta do want to go back over
>NXE and do some review work on it. What have you wrought, man?

You were just moaning about how far behind you are and how bad you feel about that, and now you want to go back to the 1990s. What am I supposed to do with this? (headshake)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
954 posts
Dec-29-13, 10:27 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #2
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-13 AT 10:30 PM (EST)
 
>>The second was Ben's firm commitment to the idea that all mission
>>briefings and staff meetings at NERV would end with mandatory tacos.
>>Not voluntary tacos; mandatory tacos.
>
>I still maintain that this wise and prudent policy would have saved a
>lot of people a lot of heartache.
>

That might mean you had several more meetings with the janitorial staff and the Worcester-3 chapter of the United Association, if my own experiences with Mexican food are anything to go by.

>>... dammit, Hutchins. Now I kinda-sorta do want to go back over
>>NXE and do some review work on it. What have you wrought, man?
>
>You were just moaning about how far behind you are and how bad you
>feel about that, and now you want to go back to the 1990s. What am I
>supposed to do with this? (headshake)

INT SCENE: An OILY MECHANIC'S SHOP. Hanging from several LARGE HOOKS are some DISMEMBERED ROBOTS. Enter GRYPHON, wheeling MERCUTIO on a small trolley in front of him. He accosts a TRADESMAN, stout of middle and greasy of overall.

GRYPHON: Hey, um, excuse me? I got a pedant 'bout 18 months ago and I think a few wires're crossed-

TRADESMAN: Lemme see that...

[The TRADESMAN briefly examines MERCUTIO, who is TWITCHING and SPEAKING IN TONGUES]

TRADESMAN: I getcha. Wants to read all your old stuff, is it? How far back we talkin' here?

GRYPHON [With a look of INCREASING WORRY]: Uh, something like two decades.

[The TRADESMAN makes a peculiar noise by sucking air through his teeth. This is a bad sign in any field, but particularly this one.]

TRADESMAN: Oh boy, this is gonna be fun. Don't worry, you got a 5-year, 100,000-nitpick warranty with this model. We'll take this out to the university lot over in Stumblebum, see if them college boys can make somethin' outta this. [He LAUGHS, with a noise like a SINK BEING UNBLOCKED] We'll see what happens, butcha might git your old stuff reviewed anyhow. Yer pedant's in safe hands.

MERCUTIO: The difference between DJ and Shinji is that the latter is a protagonist and the former is a hero-

TRADESMAN: Sure it is, son. C'mon, let's getcha on the table...

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

Can you tell it's three in the morning yet?


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Gryphonadmin
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19735 posts
Dec-29-13, 10:34 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #3
 
   >MERCUTIO: The difference between DJ and Shinji is that the latter is a
>protagonist and the former is a hero-

Y'know, Traitor, some days you are totally worth it. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
954 posts
Dec-30-13, 03:55 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #4
 
   >Y'know, Traitor, some days you are totally worth it. :)

Thanks. I just... I read a lot of attacks on NXE Way Back When that banged on relentlessly about how DJ was a terrible character for doing what he did and that therefore Shinji was out of character, and those selfsame diatribes would then link to "good" NGE fics wherein Shinji does exactly what DJ did, with quite a few of DJ's mannerisms too. Got a bit wearing after a while...

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.


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MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
280 posts
Dec-30-13, 01:25 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #5
 
   Well, hell, it's been a while since I've had my EvaFic buttons pushed--last one I read through was one of the WH40K/Eva crossovers, which was quite a bit of fun--so why not start the year off with giant robots, eschatology, and more than a little mind-bending.

NXE's a pretty decent treatment of the "so let's have someone who isn't a spineless wuss hop in the Eva and kick ass" flavor of Eva-fic in my mind because it doesn't succumb to some of the worst sins of the 'fix-fic' genre. Shinji isn't retroactively changed into some kind of ass-whupping gang leader, and by extension the other characters remain similarly true to their original sources and still react in-character to the situation, albeit a changed situation brought out by canon-brazing* of X-Com by way of DJ Croft as a brazing rod.

Mixed metallurgical metaphors aside, the only real quibble I have with the story is--and I'm going to assume that 'spoilers' are somewhat irrelevant in this context--Gendo's snap-back from mind control is, in my recollection, a bit on the erratic side. Granted, I imagine that's at least partly the point, but the whole business where coldly-logical calculating Gendo turning into a manic cheerful pixie (and getting his old clearances back without supervision?!) kinda throws me for a loop.

The presence of DJ (And, by extension, Lara, the X-files refs, X-COM, etc.) really doesn't break nor weaken the concept, as they enable the work to expand without compromising the character of the Eva-canon characters. This is something that's lost in those fics that change Shinji's essential character away from an ignored, unwanted child with all the mental issues that entails.

* If canon welding is when an author takes two previously discontinuous continuities of his own work to weld together into a single piece, then brazing--the joining of different metals--would be the logical phrase for taking discontinuous authors and joining their works. Yes. I am far too into metallurgy recently. I have a ball-peen hammer now and I am -happy-.

--
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome
decree,
Where Alph, the sacred river,
ran
Through caverns measureless to
man
Down to a sunless sea


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Offsides
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1225 posts
Dec-30-13, 03:15 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #6
 
   IIRC, the in-story explanation was that he was kinda manic before he got controlled, and the control basically locked him down...

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
940 posts
Jan-01-14, 00:53 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #6
 
  
>NXE's a pretty decent treatment of the "so let's have someone who
>isn't a spineless wuss hop in the Eva and kick ass" flavor of Eva-fic

I take issue with pejorative statements of that sort being used to describe Shinji as either a person. Shinji is an emotionally abused fourteen-year-old who likely suffers from both depression and PTSD who is dragooned into being a child soldier in his fathers apocalyptic war. A lot of people choose to intepret this as "spineless wuss-boy" because, shock of shocks, he isn't a hot-blooded hero who proclaims how his drill will pierce the heavens1.

NGE isn't an action show about giant robots with dramatic undertones; it's a character drama that also sometimes is about the horror of war and mans essential isolation from his fellow man. It kinda has to be evaluated in that context, rather than the context of giant robots kicking ass.

-Merc
Keep Rat

1I am the only person in the world who dislikes Gurren Laggan. I stood up and fucking cheered when Kamina died.


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Nathan
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Jan-01-14, 00:55 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #11
 
   >1I am the only person in the world who dislikes
>Gurren Laggan. I stood up and fucking cheered when Kamina
>died.

I failed to cheer Kamina's death because I wasn't able to tolerate even a single episode of listening to the moron, so no, you're not the only one that doesn't like Gurren Lagann.

-----

"V, did you do something foolish?"

"Yes, and it was glorious."


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-01-14, 00:59 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #11
 
   >NGE isn't an action show about giant robots with dramatic undertones

You may recall that that was my principal objection to it. Not that it wasn't, per se - takes all kinds - but that it pretended it was so that people who don't like the kind of show it really was would watch it. I take great exception to so-called "entertainment" that leaves me feeling like a sucker for having wanted to enjoy it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
280 posts
Jan-01-14, 08:47 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #11
 
   >Shinji is an emotionally abused
>fourteen-year-old who likely suffers from both depression and PTSD who
>is dragooned into being a child soldier in his fathers
>apocalyptic war.

And he's supposed to be--unless I miss my guess entirely and have completely misinterpreted EVA from the beginning--the POV "everyman" character for the audience to relate to.

I have a difficult time relating to Shinji as that type of character, even accounting for Gendo's obvious abuses.

In that respect, I kind of find DJ a bit more relateable as a POV character. He and I have a similar regard for Getting the Job Done (at least as I read it), and that's an attitude that I can respect. Psychological issues notwithstanding, the constant passivity that Shinji exhibits--he never seems to act on his own agency, but only when absolutely forced into it--is the kind of thing I find deeply off-putting and, when I see examples of it IRL, deeply irritating.

Yes, I do get that it's only through psychologically manipulating Shinji into being unable to make his own decisions that he can effectively act as Gendo's proxy during the whole eschatological acid trip, so that his preferences as regards Instrumentality can come to pass...but damnit all, we already HAVE a tablua rasa executing Gendo's every whim in Rei.

(Which, I suppose, makes the opening song that much more ironic, where it's essentially commanding legendary behavior from someone who...isn't, and I'd argue isn't capable of such)

>NGE isn't an action show about giant robots with dramatic undertones;
>it's a character drama that also sometimes is about the horror of war
>and mans essential isolation from his fellow man. It kinda has to be
>evaluated in that context, rather than the context of giant robots
>kicking ass.

I can't say that I disagree entirely with this statement, but I don't think it fits the bill entirely; I think that the end-of-the-world type mythology that pervades the series also needs to be taken into account; The World is Ending AND You Are Alone.

(And as it happens, I've never actually gotten 'round to seeing Gurren Lagaan; it's not really been on my priorities list)

--
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome
decree,
Where Alph, the sacred river,
ran
Through caverns measureless to
man
Down to a sunless sea


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Nova Floresca
Member since Sep-13-13
357 posts
Jan-01-14, 09:24 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #18
 
   Like many things, Gurren Lagann is neither as awesome as its fans would claim, nor as vapid as its detractors believe. It could use a haircut of about 4-5 episodes' worth. However, it does provide the counterpoint to explain what I think is the key problem with Shinji.

In real life, fighter pilots tend to have massive egos, and this is generally a good thing, because it's a job that requires massive, unwavering self-confidence in order to succeed. Piloting a machine like the Evas would very much fall in the same category. Now, maybe Gendo needs a doormat to make Instrumentality happen, but they won't get to that point if Eva's pilot doesn't have the balls to go out and win. Shinji is not sufficient to the task at hand (which, granted, the show admits with the way things go in the end).

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
280 posts
Jan-01-14, 11:39 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #19
 
   >In real life, fighter pilots tend to have massive egos, and this is
>generally a good thing, because it's a job that requires massive,
>unwavering self-confidence in order to succeed. Piloting a machine
>like the Evas would very much fall in the same category. Now, maybe
>Gendo needs a doormat to make Instrumentality happen, but they won't
>get to that point if Eva's pilot doesn't have the balls to go out and
>win. Shinji is not sufficient to the task at hand (which, granted, the
>show admits with the way things go in the end).

Good point, that--and it's not just fighter pilots, either. Test pilots (anyone flying something with an X or Y prefix on the type designator, e.g. X-35 or YF-35) also have egos roughly the size of small moons; ground attack pilots have egos that are even bigger; and while the local Management here is apparently fond of Yeager and I'd be stupid to say anything bad about him, the combination of figher+test article pilot results in an ego that could eclipse most suns.

Every single pilot I've met/worked with/worked for in those categories has been, without exception, an arrogant sumbitch with a truly enormous ego.

Perhaps that's part of what bothers me about Shinji piloting the massive prototype robot...

--
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome
decree,
Where Alph, the sacred river,
ran
Through caverns measureless to
man
Down to a sunless sea


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Gryphonadmin
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19735 posts
Jan-02-14, 00:06 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #20
 
   >while the local Management here is apparently fond of Yeager and I'd
>be stupid to say anything bad about him, the combination of
>figher+test article pilot results in an ego that could eclipse most
>suns.

Hey, I respect General Yeager's accomplishments (and his guts) as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I'm not cognizant of the fact that he's pretty widely considered an asshole. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
954 posts
Jan-02-14, 07:21 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #20
 
   That's a good point, but I'd argue that the type of hyper-egotistical pilot you talk about is represented by Asuka, who is much more a typical giant-robot-show character than Shinji upon her first appearance. If you want to see what happens when Simon or Domon Kasshu gets dumped into the Eva universe, follow how her character is worn down. As for Shinji and Rei, well... this article on the psychological damage done to child soldiers sans robot might make for interesting reading.

Gosh, this got grim quickly. Let's think about puppies instead.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.


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MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
280 posts
Jan-02-14, 01:31 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #22
 
   >That's a good point, but I'd argue that the type of hyper-egotistical
>pilot you talk about is represented by Asuka, who is much more a
>typical giant-robot-show character than Shinji upon her first
>appearance.

Yes, you are entirely correct. But between standard-test-pilot Asuka (who, ironically, pilots the production model Eva rather than the prototype, go figure) and tablua-rasa-Rei there is quite a lot of middle ground where an 'everyman' character could sit, and I think Shinji's much too close to the Rei side of the spectrum for the cast to be effective--having two passive and one active character really doesn't work out that well for a proper three-person cast.

Were I in the fanfic writing business and rewriting Eva, I'd probably end up molding it with Shinji expressing more bravado to cover up his insecurities in the situation (kind of like overt-Asuka with covert-Rei, say), and with better manipulation by Gendo to mold his responses into being Gendo's proxy for the situation.

As a side note, I only became aware of the remake of Eva very recently, and was puzzled when I went to check something Eva-related and saw some chick with glasses in a plug-suit. If you're neurally synchronized with your giant robot, why would you need glasses?


>Gosh, this got grim quickly. Let's think about puppies instead.

Well, yeah. It's EVA. It's inherently grim.

--
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome
decree,
Where Alph, the sacred river,
ran
Through caverns measureless to
man
Down to a sunless sea


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
954 posts
Jan-02-14, 02:06 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #23
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-14 AT 02:08 PM (EST)
 
You're right, and I like your idea about rewriting our lead in order to balance the cast out a bit more. The thing is, though, I'm not sure Shinji's supposed to be an everyman - kinda like he's not meant to be a hero. Not technically, at least. If I've read the show right (and this is all conjecture), then Shinji's kind of a meditation upon the concept of the everyman protagonist in SF&F in general.

I hate to keep dragging it up, but TTGL is kinda like the mirror of NGE in some respects - it's just that instead of being a critique of popular elements that go into conventional giant robot shows, it's a critique of the entire concept and how ridiculous it is, and it does it by being as ridiculously overblown as it's possible for a giant robot show to be. Simon, for the sake of comparison, is therefore the mirror to Shinji. The two both follow the chosen-boy narrative path quite closely (Simon finds a Special Spirally Whatever that matches his backstory to a T, Shinji gets dragged into a war for the sake of mankind by an estranged relative; tomayto, tomahto), and their message is the same: the idea of the Everyman Hero in fiction, particularly SF&F where such things are de rigeur, is at heart based on wish fulfillment.

When the Everyman Hero is the protagonist of a science fiction or fantasy work, the audience is supposed to identify with them as a means for being introduced to the world and (more importantly) the world's rules. Most of them rise to the occasion, stumbling a little but becoming the heroes they were (almost always literally, because DESTINY and FATE and so forth) born to be. TTGL and NGE, on the other hand, take issue with this premise, but do so in different ways. Simon doesn't really stumble much, becoming much like his brother in terms of temperament (while slinging galaxies around like deck quoits seriously TTGL is weird at the end) and becoming a showcase for limitless bombast and overdesigned stunts in the name of testosterone poisoning, because that is the reductio ad absurdum version of the wish-fulfillment fantasy. Shinji, on the other hand, behaves kinda how a child caught up in a pretty-much-hopeless war against malevolent non-Euclidean beings from beyond the stars would behave - by going completely to pieces but still showing up for drills because he has no choice at all. People always seem to forget that Shinji basically has no agency in the series; he's not getting in the damn robot because Gendo and Misato are telling him to, he's getting in the damn robot because he doesn't have another choice in the matter and they've already got at least one pilot, even if she looks like she's gone twelve rounds with Mike Tyson, Bruce Lee, and a speeding bus. We're seeing how an actual everyman of that age would react to the events of Evangelion; i.e., a normal fourteen-year-old forms a shell around themselves while inside they're a gibbering wreck. The Everyman Hero, just like everything else in NGE, is deconstructed in the most miserable, depressing way possible.

It's then promptly drenched in tarot and Judaeo-Christian iconography for no good reason whatsoever. The show's protagonist might get an unfair write-off as a "spineless wuss" by people who completely Do Not Get It, but I don't actually like the programme all that much. Bit bleak for me, and I have way more faith in humanity's ability to get its collective shit together than Gainax does.

Also, I can finish something off without going blargle blargle THE KING OF THE WIND LIES ON A BROKEN BED AND THE BED IS THE BED OF A DRAGON or some shit... which might be a commentary on the concept of the grand finale as viewed through the eyes of someone normal (i.e. relentlessly confusing to the point of meaninglessness), but that in turn might be giving people who make female characters' breasts move like a couple of hyperactive space hoppers a bit too much credit.

So I'm doing that.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

Another example of Times When Traitor Is Not Worth It.


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twipper
Member since Jan-8-03
279 posts
Jan-02-14, 09:19 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #24
 
   >which might be a commentary on the concept of
>the grand finale as viewed through the eyes of someone normal (i.e.
>relentlessly confusing to the point of meaninglessness)

Not particularly related to NGE/NXE, but this comment made me stop. I'm trying to think of a single series finale (anime, regular, whatever) that actually worked for me;and the ONLY one that comes to mind is MASH. Not one other series finale that I can recall having seen was in any way satisfying.

Part of me accepts the fact that this is a product of shows that get any kind of traction today getting renewed for FAR too many seasons. Lost was a prime example of this problem, as was Smallville (which I really enjoyed for the first 2 seasons), and was really true for Burn Notice (which was the first spy serial I've enjoyed, well, ever).

But I think there is also the problem that most shows that end up with some kind of longish-term meta-story happen with writers who don't expect the series to MAKE the finale to really worry about considering an end game.

The only exception to this I can think of was Babylon 5, which was designed by Strazyncski (sp?) to be 5 seasons. Then, when he tried to finish off the series when/how he intended, the producers punted him and ran the series into the ground.

Freak'n Hollywood...

Brian


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Mephronmoderator
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Jun-03-14, 09:47 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #24
 
   > might be giving people who make female characters' breasts move
>like a couple of hyperactive space hoppers a bit too much credit.

>Another example of Times When Traitor Is Not Worth It.

No, no, I just laughed out loud and nearly spit chicken tender out my nose. Totally worth it for that line.

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


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twipper
Member since Jan-8-03
279 posts
Jan-01-14, 02:31 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #6
 
   >Well, hell, it's been a while since I've had my EvaFic buttons
>pushed--last one I read through was one of the WH40K/Eva crossovers,
>which was quite a bit of fun--so why not start the year off with giant
>robots, eschatology, and more than a little mind-bending.
>

Heh, I ended up at Eryie via Children of an Elder God Eva crossover fanfic. I had finished what was then published, and went looking for something else I could get interested in. NXE was the only one that stuck. I tried the 40K crossover (or at least one of them) a couple years back, but didn't get past the first 3-4 episodes. It was an amusing conceit, but I just couldn't keep with it. :)

Brian


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dstar
Member since Oct-19-02
153 posts
Jan-13-14, 09:12 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #6
 
   >Well, hell, it's been a while since I've had my EvaFic buttons
>pushed--last one I read through was one of the WH40K/Eva crossovers,
>which was quite a bit of fun--so why not start the year off with giant
>robots, eschatology, and more than a little mind-bending.

I would just like to say*:

It _says_ something about Evangelion that adding WH40K to it makes it _less_ grim and depressing.

I hadn't thought that was _possible_.

dstar
* I may have said this here before, but I don't think so.


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Meagen
Member since Jul-14-02
551 posts
Jan-14-14, 04:18 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #34
 
   >I would just like to say*:
>
>It _says_ something about Evangelion that adding WH40K to it makes it
>_less_ grim and depressing.
>
>I hadn't thought that was _possible_.

I makes perfect sense if you think about it.

WH40k is, by design, so far on the "grim and depressing" scale that it is no longer possible to take it seriously and it becomes a farce instead. (Warriors who put enemies' skulls on spikes? Grim. Warriors who put enemies' skulls on spikes on their armor? Kinda out there. Warriors whose armor is completely *covered* with spikes and skulls and skulls on spikes? ...come *on*.)

Evangelion is, by design, carefully balanced on the edge of "grim and depressing" where it *almost* seems like it might be possible to find a bit of happiness or achieve some small victory, but if you try it'll just be taken away from you.

--
With great power come great perks.


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Meridias
Member since Jun-9-12
60 posts
Dec-31-13, 01:34 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #3
 
  
>TRADESMAN: Sure it is, son. C'mon, let's getcha on the table...

Oh man. This totally made my day. :)

*********************
Rock Is Dead. Long Live Paper And Scissors.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
940 posts
Jan-01-14, 00:41 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #3
 
  
>MERCUTIO: The difference between DJ and Shinji is that the latter is a
>protagonist and the former is a hero-

I'm relatively certain that I, in fact, said those precise words at at least one point.

Not sure what it says about me and my conversatin' style that Traitor could intuit it so precisely. I choose to not think about this and instead drink more cider.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-01-14, 00:55 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #10
 
   >drink more cider.

Here is a true thing that happened:

So years ago - I want to say either New Year's Eve 1998 or 2000 - when we were still young and beautiful, Truss and I and Zoner (who all lived together at the time) and our friend Ford, and possibly one or two other people I can't remember now, had a New Year's Eve get-together at Shamrock House in Waltham. We weren't planning on a hugely gala evening anyway, but even by our utterly unambitious standards, it was a bit shambolic. Having each assumed nobody else would and bought a twelve-pack of Cider Jack, we found ourselves with little else but same in the house...

... so we all drank two apiece and fell asleep in the living room, watching the Croc Hunter marathon on Animal Planet. If Ford's husband hadn't phoned from his parents' place in Oregon at 11:45ish, we'd have slept right through midnight.

For years thereafter, we would joke about the year we had an old people's New Year's party.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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1555 posts
Jan-01-14, 03:18 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #10
 
   >
>>MERCUTIO: The difference between DJ and Shinji is that the latter is a
>>protagonist and the former is a hero-
>
>I'm relatively certain that I, in fact, said those precise words at at
>least one point.
>
>Not sure what it says about me and my conversatin' style that Traitor
>could intuit it so precisely.
>

It doesn't say a thing about your current conversational style.

It says a lot about how predictable people who disliked NXE were, fifteen or so years ago.

Peter Eng
--
I was a lot dumber fifteen years ago. Is there anybody who wasn't?


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
954 posts
Jan-01-14, 07:02 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #15
 
   >I was a lot dumber fifteen years ago. Is there anybody who wasn't?

Yup, certainly was. Then again, fifteen years ago I was six (with the attendant mental age), so yeah.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

Nothing has changed.


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Croaker
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555 posts
Jan-06-14, 04:32 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #10
 
   >
>>MERCUTIO: The difference between DJ and Shinji is that the latter is a
>>protagonist and the former is a hero-
>
>I'm relatively certain that I, in fact, said those precise words at at
>least one point.
>
>Not sure what it says about me and my conversatin' style that Traitor
>could intuit it so precisely. I choose to not think about this and
>instead drink more cider.
>
>-Merc
>Keep Rat

*makes a note to get Merc more cider, check on the homebrew partner*

There was a canard a few years back that if you genderswapped the cast, everyone would fit all too well. Boy!Asuka would be the fiery, high-spirited, drill-will-pierce-the-heavens test pilot, Rei would be the laconic loner, and Shinji would, of course, be The Chick, and the romantic interest the two were fighting over.

Then last week I was reading an essay on gender roles in fiction and why male authors write female characters (and, in specific case, why some authors write genderbent SIs, this being a SpaceBattles.com debate at the particular moment). And there was a lot of talk about how girls were 'allowed' to show emotional weakness and guys weren't.

I'm wondering if this is the heart of why Shinji - whose actions are very believable and in-character, even if we may find them disappointing - gets so much abuse and dislike from the fanbase. (Actually, no, I'm not wondering, I'm pretty darn certain of it.)

Note for example that Asuka -does- go through a similar (and more rapid, and more severe) emotional collapse herself, and nobody holds it against her: she's a girl, it's expected, it's -allowed-. Shinji? To quote Misato; "You're a boy, aren't you?"

--
Croaker
RCW #mc2
"When in doubt, shoot something. Preferably the enemy."


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Mephronmoderator
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8. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #2
 
   >>The second was Ben's firm commitment to the idea that all mission
>>briefings and staff meetings at NERV would end with mandatory tacos.
>>Not voluntary tacos; mandatory tacos.
>
>I still maintain that this wise and prudent policy would have saved a
>lot of people a lot of heartache.

And caused more of them a lot of heartburn but you take what you can get in a difficult universe.

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


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BLUE
Member since Oct-22-02
401 posts
Jan-09-14, 11:13 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #1
 
   >>Over in the discussion of the UF mini Agreement in Principle,
>>this happened.
>>
>>Pasha said:
>>>><1> Merc, I *really* wanna read what you have to think about NXE.
>>
>2001, I believe. It certainly wasn't in 1998; this happened at
>Katsucon, which wasn't there in '98.
>
Because sometimes (okay, all the time...) its all about me in my head, I read this and my first thought was "Wait, Gryph and I were at a con at the SAME TIME and I didn't meet him?" (because this was and is a rare thing, I avoid East Coast cons like the plague now that I moved away from there...) And then I realized I was working for a table in the Dealers' Room at that con, had a pregnant wife at the time, and was ALSO coming down with something. So that explains that.

NXE was actually the first Eyrie thing that I read, and my first thought was that I was just happy that there was DECENTLY WRITTEN Eva fanfic. In prose, because apparently back in the bad old days it was acceptable to write fic in SCRIPT FORMAT. I would have liked DJ to discover his mortality just a bit sooner, because he was an arrogant shit when it finally happened, but for all its conceits I liked the story, and for the life of me I just don't get why people hated on it. But then I thought a LOT of the crap the fanfic community did (like crashing servers and infecting them with virii) was pretty stupid.

OTOH, I would have liked to WATCH the conversation that's the thread topic, if only to see the deconstruction of Merc's objections.

-D-

"I don't tell you how to remove bullets. Don't you tell me how to make killing machines back into little girls." Captain Kaff Tagon of Tagon's Toughs, Schlock Mercenary


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Offsides
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1225 posts
Jan-10-14, 09:36 AM (EST)
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28. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #27
 
   >In prose, because apparently back in the bad old days it was
>acceptable to write fic in SCRIPT FORMAT.

It's perfectly acceptable to write fic in script format, as long as a) it's intended to be acted out in some way or b) it's short and you're using the format to convey a stage/screen-like atmosphere for a reason.

That said, the idea of something the size of even 1 "episode" of NXE in script format the whole way just makes me cringe...

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
280 posts
Jan-10-14, 10:35 AM (EST)
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29. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #28
 
   If you're in the script-reading mindset, that's actually not that bad a situation. Kind of like switching from reading prose to reading code; you use a different part of your brain to process it.

--
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome
decree,
Where Alph, the sacred river,
ran
Through caverns measureless to
man
Down to a sunless sea


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-10-14, 12:55 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #29
 
   >If you're in the script-reading mindset, that's actually not that bad
>a situation. Kind of like switching from reading prose to reading
>code; you use a different part of your brain to process it.

Some jokes work better in that format, too. Not that I expect most Evangelion fanfics have a lot of jokes.

(I have to guess at that, not having read any.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
954 posts
Jan-10-14, 01:33 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #30
 
   >Not that I expect most
>Evangelion fanfics have a lot of jokes.

Generally, in my experience, the fic itself is the joke.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

oooooooooh. buuuuuuuuuuuurn. or whatever it is the kids say these days.


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
514 posts
Jan-12-14, 04:29 AM (EST)
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32. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #31
 
   >>Not that I expect most
>>Evangelion fanfics have a lot of jokes.
>
>Generally, in my experience, the fic itself is the joke.
>
>---
>"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or
>hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was
>something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory
>
>FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My
>Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.
>
>oooooooooh. buuuuuuuuuuuurn. or whatever it is the kids say
>these days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctMTC3nj0Q0


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DaPatman89
Member since May-2-12
87 posts
Jan-12-14, 10:29 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Disagreement in Principle"
In response to message #32
 
   I prefer http://instantrimshot.com/

---

"Things in life aren't always quite what they seem,
There's more than one given angle to any one given scene.
So bear that in mind next time you try to intervene
On any one given angle on any one given scene."
Angles - dan le sac vs. Scroobius Pip


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