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Subject: "The Psi Corp is your friend" Archived thread - Read only
 
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trigger
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Aug-02-01, 04:13 PM (EST)
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"The Psi Corp is your friend"
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-01 AT 04:21 PM (EDT)

Being interested in the future of our heroes, this caught my eye on the second read:
"The Extension to the Psionics Regulation and Protection Act
is before the Earthdome Assembly again," Devlin pointed out, his tone
graver than usual. "And it looks like it has a good chance of passin'
this time, what? Off-Earth conscription powers for the Psi Corps,
expansion of their jurisdiction from the homeworld to the borders of
the whole Alliance, all that rot. High-psionic-potential races are
nervous, an' well they should be. They're backin' away from Earth as
a gesture of protest." He shook his head. "Won't work. 'Internal
operations of a sovereign nation' and all that. Won't be too long
before they're pushing a similar Extension for the whole Federation,
and if the outer races back off instead of fightin'... well, 'peace in
our time,' as they say."

Um, am I understanding this correctly, but is PSI corp threatening to basically haul anyone off the street who is remotely pyschic and turn them into a PSI corp goon? Irregardless of citizenship?

If that is the case, why didn't Zeta Cygni register a protest about this? I can't imagine that Gryphon would be infavor of this extension of Psi Corp power.

Why does Devlin think that everyone letting Earth get away with this will _not_ cause a conflict? And why isn't he worried?

Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?

gah,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: The Psi Corp is your friend megazone Aug-02-01 1
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trigger Aug-02-01 2
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trussteam Aug-02-01 3
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trigger Aug-02-01 8
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-02-01 10
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trigger Aug-02-01 11
                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Juunanagou Aug-02-01 12
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Dreamshadow Aug-02-01 13
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend BobSchroeck Aug-03-01 17
                                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Juunanagou Aug-03-01 28
                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend zojojojo Aug-03-01 18
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend BobSchroeck Aug-03-01 23
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Sarcasticone Aug-07-01 65
                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-08-01 66
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend megazone Aug-02-01 4
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Sinapus Aug-02-01 6
  RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-02-01 5
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend drakensisthered Aug-03-01 16
  RE: The Psi Corp is your friend goldenfire Aug-02-01 7
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trigger Aug-02-01 9
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Neophyte Aug-03-01 15
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trigger Aug-03-01 20
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Perko Aug-03-01 22
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Neophyte Aug-03-01 25
                     RE: education sub-thread drakensisthered Aug-03-01 27
                         RE: education sub-thread Neophyte Aug-03-01 31
  RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Polychrome Aug-03-01 14
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Alathaniel Aug-03-01 19
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Spornoc Aug-03-01 29
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Nathan Aug-03-01 30
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Redneck Aug-04-01 35
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Polychrome Aug-04-01 36
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Chris Redfield Aug-04-01 37
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Polychrome Aug-04-01 38
                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trigger Aug-04-01 39
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend megazone Aug-04-01 45
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend trussteam Aug-03-01 21
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend zojojojo Aug-03-01 24
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Mephronmoderator Aug-03-01 26
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend remandeteam Aug-04-01 32
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Star Ranger4 Aug-04-01 33
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Chris Redfield Aug-04-01 34
  RE: The Psi Corp is your friend ejheckathorn Aug-04-01 40
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-04-01 41
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend ejheckathorn Aug-04-01 42
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-04-01 43
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend ejheckathorn Aug-04-01 44
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Laudre Aug-05-01 47
                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-05-01 49
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Peter Eng Aug-05-01 51
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend ejheckathorn Aug-05-01 52
                                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Perko Aug-05-01 59
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend NightmareButterfly Aug-05-01 55
                                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Gryphonadmin Aug-05-01 56
                                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend NightmareButterfly Aug-05-01 57
                                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Spornoc Aug-14-01 70
                                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Matrix Dragon Aug-14-01 71
                                         Warhammer 40K remandeteam Aug-14-01 72
                             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Laudre Aug-05-01 58
                                 RE: Shadowrun and Earthdawn junipermoderator Aug-06-01 60
                                     RE: Shadowrun and Earthdawn Star Ranger4 Aug-09-01 69
                                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Verbena Aug-07-01 64
                                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Laudre Aug-08-01 67
                                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend drakensisthered Aug-09-01 68
                         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend ejheckathorn Aug-05-01 53
             RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Chris Redfield Aug-04-01 46
                 RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Star Ranger4 Aug-05-01 48
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Nathan Aug-05-01 50
                     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Mister Fnord Aug-05-01 54
  RE: The Psi Corp is your friend drakensisthered Aug-06-01 61
     RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Star Ranger4 Aug-06-01 62
         RE: The Psi Corp is your friend Perko Aug-06-01 63

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megazone
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Aug-02-01, 04:20 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #0
 
   >Um, am I understanding this correctly, but is PSI corp threatening to
>basically haul anyone off the street who is remotely pyschic and turn
>them into a PSI corp goon? Irregardless of citizenship?

Basically.

>If that is the case, why didn't Zeta Cygni register a protest about
>this? I can't imagine that Grphon would be infavor of this extension
>of Psi Corp power.

Who says a protest hasn't been lodged? ZC just didn't pull its citizens home forcibly.

>Why does Devlin think that everyone letting Earth get away with this
>will _not_ cause a conflict? And why isn't he worried?

I think you might have misread it - Delvin is being flippant. He may be worried, but in the end only teeps really need to worry. The corps doesn't care much about mundanes.

>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?

Because they already have said powers on Earth. If you're living on Earth you need proof that you're not a teep, or you need to be a member of the corp.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay


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trigger
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Aug-02-01, 04:29 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #1
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-01 AT 04:32 PM (EDT)

LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-01 AT 04:31 PM (EDT)

(note to self: learn to proofread)
(note to forum gods: get a spell checker)

>>If that is the case, why didn't Zeta Cygni register a protest about
>>this? I can't imagine that Grphon would be infavor of this extension
>>of Psi Corp power.
>Who says a protest hasn't been lodged? ZC just didn't pull its
>citizens home forcibly.

OK. So our heroes (almost all of whom are marginally pyschic) have protested. Earthdome Assembly rewrites the laws to allow this travesty of sentient rights, irregardless of international protest. What is going to stop Psi Corp from going after the WPI kids? Will their cards (esp. the ones provided by Zoner) protect them?

>>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>
>Because they already have said powers on Earth. If you're living on
>Earth you need proof that you're not a teep, or you need to be a
>member of the corp.

Gah. Intergalatic travel must be a bitch. ID cards for each separate planet. Eeew. I pity the Psi Corp goon who tries to grab Verdanthi. Or Corwin. It would really suck to have the Norns after you.

So, what would Zoner do if any of his charges were nabbed and scheduled for processing by the Psi Corp? I assume the Avatar of Chaos would have a problem with this?

Too many questions, but I'll be good and not ask why Edward is worried, and what Lisa will do if she happens to get a chance to speak to a Psi Corp recruiter...

I dare say, WPI is a hell of a lot more interesting than my high school.

t.


Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Aug-02-01, 04:52 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #2
 
   >OK. So our heroes (almost all of whom are marginally pyschic)

Uh... they are? What gave you that impression?

Strange magical ability != Psi talent, you know.

--truss.


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trigger
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Aug-02-01, 05:18 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #3
 
   >Uh... they are? What gave you that impression?
>
>Strange magical ability != Psi talent, you know.

Well, let's examine the evidence:

Yuri and Kei have said that they have a psi talent - precog.
Gryphon has done neato-jedi mind tricks and the like. You may want to note the telekinesis in "Checkmate".
The Norns are telepathic. I won't even go into the telekinesis, teleportation stuff. I think we can assume that Corwin has at least the potential to do some of that.
Redneck and Rianna are telepathic (jedi mind tricks).
Azalynn is empathic.

Also, I think we need to address the question of what the Psi Corp considers psi talent. Would Zoner or Utena fit into a Psi Corp category? What makes psi power distinct from magic?

nitpicky, I know. It just that I've never thought of anyone in UF as being magical. After all, all science sufficiently advanced is magic works in both directions. When you say magic, I think of invocations and such. I haven't seen any one in UF invoke any power (well, except for the help of Skuld) via spells or other material things). Even the Norn of tomorrow uses Block Transfer Maths to make the universe run.

Afterall, when was the last time anyone in UF said "Moon Power Makeup!" or "By the power of greyskull!"

That, and the thought of a Psi Corp both fascinates and horrifies me.

t.
who wishes she was a magical girl, but will settle for jedi mind tricks

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-02-01, 05:30 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #8
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-01 AT 05:30 PM (EDT)

>Gryphon has done neato-jedi mind tricks and the like. You may want to
>note the telekinesis in "Checkmate".

Force manipulation is not psionic power by the standards of the Corps. They consider "the Force" a myth and discount reports of its existence. Those who have the ability to manipulate the Force do not register on the tests used to determine if someone is a telepath and thus subject to the Corps' jurisdiction.

>Azalynn is empathic.

Is she?

>Also, I think we need to address the question of what the Psi Corp
>considers psi talent. Would Zoner or Utena fit into a Psi Corp
>category? What makes psi power distinct from magic?

It's all in how it shows up on the gauges. "Telepathy" by the Psi Corps' standards is a distinct condition of the brain which results in a quantifiable power that normal humans don't have - period. Most of the special powers exhibited by the UF mainliners are much more exotic. Zoner, even if he submitted himself to be tested, would come off as strange, but not a telepath. Utena isn't even close. The Corps doesn't have instruments that can register the Power of Dios; she'd come off as a plain old ordinary mundane.

>When you say magic, I think of invocations
>and such. I haven't seen any one in UF invoke any power

You haven't been paying much attention, then... there are invocations all over Twilight (Skuld's creation of the Cosmic Rod, the working she weaves on Gryphon during their battle with Fenris, the Great Warding that separates Loki from Zoner), and Utena has (unconsciously) invoked the Power of Dios five times now. Six, if you count her own arrival in Midgard, though that was offscreen.

Block transfer mathematics are themselves a form of sorcery - manipulation of otherworldly energies by way of a mental construct. The line between magic and technology blurs a bit in Skuld's case, but that's because of who and what she is. You want some more conventional sorcery, take a look at her elder sisters...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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trigger
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Aug-02-01, 06:25 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #10
 
   Ah, now I begin to understand. <grin> And now I need to go back and re-read so that I can better assimilate the idea that science and magic can co-exist.

I'm serious. It's a real philosophical hurdle for me. Good god, I think I'm getting old. At 19, I would be like "that's cool" and rolled with it. At <mumble> I find that I'm suddenly stuck on logic puzzles. Ack.

Of course it might help if I didn't do this during business hours. Personality shift, and all.

many thanks for the explanations,
t.


Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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Juunanagou
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Aug-02-01, 06:36 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #11
 
   >I'm serious. It's a real philosophical hurdle for me. Good god, I
>think I'm getting old. At 19, I would be like "that's cool" and rolled
>with it. At <mumble> I find that I'm suddenly stuck on logic puzzles.
> Ack.

I've found that the best way to improve my mood over a "logic" puzzle in any piece of fiction is to sit down with Mates' Elementary Logic and do formal proofs until one of the following happens to my head:
1) Stops hurting.
2) Makes my eyes cross.
3) #56 in Chapter 6: Tautologous Sentences causes neural shutdown... again.


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Dreamshadow
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Aug-02-01, 10:27 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #12
 
   >>I'm serious. It's a real philosophical hurdle for me. Good god, I
>>think I'm getting old. At 19, I would be like "that's cool" and rolled
>>with it. At <mumble> I find that I'm suddenly stuck on logic puzzles.
>> Ack.
>
>I've found that the best way to improve my mood over a "logic" puzzle
>in any piece of fiction is to sit down with Mates' Elementary
>Logic
and do formal proofs until one of the following happens to
>my head:
>1) Stops hurting.
>2) Makes my eyes cross.
>3) #56 in Chapter 6: Tautologous Sentences causes neural
>shutdown... again.

Gah....now you went and removed my mental block to discrete mathematics. *AAARRRGGHH* *goes and pulls out textbook* This is gonna take hours to rebuild...unless I hit sets containing infinite sets of numbers first...

Tom 'Dreamshadow' Tjarks
------------------------
"There are no answers, only cross references."


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BobSchroeck
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Aug-03-01, 08:00 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #12
 
   >I've found that the best way to improve my mood over a "logic" puzzle
>in any piece of fiction is to sit down with Mates' Elementary
>Logic
and do formal proofs until one of the following happens to
>my head:
>3) #56 in Chapter 6: Tautologous Sentences causes neural
>shutdown... again.

Okay... what's #56? (Asks the man who doesn't have this particular book...)


-- Bob
---------------
"Shinji. Same name as the master key -- well done, Ikari. Shinji can't be copied. Splendid plan." -- Tabris, in Tenshi Muyo! Rei-o-ohki


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Juunanagou
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Aug-03-01, 10:05 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #17
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-01 AT 10:43 PM (EDT)

>>I've found that the best way to improve my mood over a "logic" puzzle
>>in any piece of fiction is to sit down with Mates' Elementary
>>Logic
and do formal proofs until one of the following happens to
>>my head:
>>3) #56 in Chapter 6: Tautologous Sentences causes neural
>>shutdown... again.
>
>Okay... what's #56? (Asks the man who doesn't have this particular
>book...)

56. ((P&Q)v(R&S))<-->(((PvR)&(PvS))&((QvR)&(QvS)))

& = both the antecedent and the consequent are true
<--> = the antecedent is true if and only if the consequent is true (and vice versa)
v = either the antecedent is true, or else the consequent is true, or both are true
The ampersand, wedge, arrow, double headed arrow, and wedge are all binary connectives; the bar is negation, and is the only unary connective in this language, and it not present in the truth of logic above (but it may be present in the proof itself).
P, Q, R, and S are all sentential variables.
The left- and right-hand parenthesis are grouping symbols.

If I remember correctly, it ends up being about a 40-70 line proof.

I think that's a pretty succinct explanation. If it isn't sufficient, please email me privately. After all, as interesting as mathematical logic is, not everyone digs it....

Juun.

doh... the negation symbol is a unary connective, not a binary connective. My mistake.


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zojojojo
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Aug-03-01, 09:40 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #11
 
   >Ah, now I begin to understand. <grin> And now I need to go back and
>re-read so that I can better assimilate the idea that science and
>magic can co-exist.

for a fanfic perspective on how this might work, i recommend reading Drunkard's Walk 2 by Bob Schreck. he has an interesting explanation of how the two inter-relate in one of the later chapters... and it's a good read to boot.

>Of course it might help if I didn't do this during business hours.
>Personality shift, and all.

business hours are the best time to read fanfic :)


-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.


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BobSchroeck
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Aug-03-01, 01:24 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #18
 
   >>re-read so that I can better assimilate the idea that science and
>>magic can co-exist.
>for a fanfic perspective on how this might work, i recommend reading
>Drunkard's Walk 2
>by Bob Schroeck.

Thanks for the plug! To be more precise, the passage I think you're referring to -- dinner at Eriko's, right? -- can be found in chapter 7 (http://www.warriors-alpha.net/adg/dw2-07.html). Then again, you might be thinking of some of the material in chapter 9 (http://www.warriors-alpha.net/adg/dw2-09.html, obviously enough).

>business hours are the best time to read fanfic :)

Only. Not "best", only.

-- Bob, whose life is too damn busy when he's home...
---------------
"Shinji. Same name as the master key -- well done, Ikari. Shinji can't be copied. Splendid plan." -- Tabris, in Tenshi Muyo! Rei-o-ohki


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Sarcasticone
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Aug-07-01, 10:05 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #10
 
   The five times what were they I know there were three times when she brought her friends over, and then the time she blasted Gryphon through the wall. What was the fifth?


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Gryphonadmin
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19264 posts
Aug-08-01, 02:09 AM (EST)
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66. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #65
 
   >The five times what were they I know there were three times when she
>brought her friends over, and then the time she blasted Gryphon
>through the wall. What was the fifth?

(Context, please, boys and girls. "Reply with Quote" is your friend. Don't worry about disk space, we've plenty, as long as Truss doesn't screw up a procmail script and spam himself until /var/spool fills up again.)

The fifth invocation of the Power of Dios seen on-screen in the Symphony so far comes, as is traditional for Utena, at the end of her duel with Liza.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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megazone
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Aug-02-01, 05:04 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #2
 
   >OK. So our heroes (almost all of whom are marginally pyschic) have

Nani? What gave you that idea?

>What is going to stop Psi Corp from going after the WPI kids? Will
>their cards (esp. the ones provided by Zoner) protect them?

It is like the old Cold War or WWII movies: "Papers please." 99.9% of the time you just have to flash the card if a Psi Cop challenges you to show your documents.

>Gah. Intergalatic travel must be a bitch. ID cards for each separate
>planet.

The way I see it they are only needed if you will be living on the planet, or spending some long period of time there. It isn't really all that different from needing to get a Visa (not the credit card folks) to enter certain countries. The regulations for each country vary - some don't require one, some require one only for stays over a certain duration, others require one for any entry.

>So, what would Zoner do if any of his charges were nabbed and
>scheduled for processing by the Psi Corp? I assume the Avatar of
>Chaos would have a problem with this?

I would - but it isn't an issue, none of the Cephiro bunch are psychic. Not in anyway the Corps cares about. They aren't teeps.

>worried, and what Lisa will do if she happens to get a chance to speak
>to a Psi Corp recruiter...

Liza - and what could she say at this point? I'm sure the Corps gets a lot of crank 'tips' from people 'turning in' people they don't like. So some Psi Corps beat cop comes around, checks their papers, and goes off to the local donut shop. They probably have serious penalties for those who turn in false tips.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay


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Sinapus
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Aug-02-01, 05:08 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #2
 
   >>>If that is the case, why didn't Zeta Cygni register a protest about
>>>this? I can't imagine that Grphon would be infavor of this extension
>>>of Psi Corp power.
>>Who says a protest hasn't been lodged? ZC just didn't pull its
>>citizens home forcibly.
>
>OK. So our heroes (almost all of whom are marginally pyschic) have
>protested. Earthdome Assembly rewrites the laws to allow this
>travesty of sentient rights, irregardless of international protest.
>What is going to stop Psi Corp from going after the WPI kids? Will
>their cards (esp. the ones provided by Zoner) protect them?

Well, the title of the next story is listed as "Hunted Rose" in the ending credits of the Duelists story. So, the answer to those questions is: "not much", and "no".

>>>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>>
>>Because they already have said powers on Earth. If you're living on
>>Earth you need proof that you're not a teep, or you need to be a
>>member of the corp.
>
>Gah. Intergalatic travel must be a bitch. ID cards for each separate
>planet. Eeew. I pity the Psi Corp goon who tries to grab Verdanthi.
>Or Corwin. It would really suck to have the Norns after you.

That's what you get for tempting Fate. ;)

(Actually, judging from the mangas, I shudder at what Belldandy would do to someone who really ticked her off. All I can predict is that the offender would probably survive.)

>So, what would Zoner do if any of his charges were nabbed and
>scheduled for processing by the Psi Corp? I assume the Avatar of
>Chaos would have a problem with this?

>Too many questions, but I'll be good and not ask why Edward is
>worried, and what Lisa will do if she happens to get a chance to speak
>to a Psi Corp recruiter...

Edward has read history, maybe?

(Er, sorry. It's Martin Rose's fault.)


Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"


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Gryphonadmin
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19264 posts
Aug-02-01, 05:05 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #0
 
   >Um, am I understanding this correctly, but is PSI corp threatening to
>basically haul anyone off the street who is remotely pyschic and turn
>them into a PSI corp goon? Irregardless of citizenship?

Well, no, not quite.

What the Extension to the Act does is permit the Corps to conscript telepaths from other Earth Alliance worlds, as opposed to just on Earth as they do "now". The vict - er, new recruits - still have to be citizens of the Earth Alliance. According to the Corps charter, p-talented non-citizens are supposed to be monitored closely and deported if they cause problems, but they can't be conscripted into the Corps.

The reason this is alarming to non-EA citizen-types is simple: any broadening of the Corps' powers is alarming. However benign and worthwhile their cause is supposed to be, they're creepy and nobody likes them. It's a slippery-slope argument.

>If that is the case, why didn't Zeta Cygni register a protest about
>this? I can't imagine that Gryphon would be infavor of this extension
>of Psi Corp power.

A protest has indeed been registered, but Gryphon, along with several others, has already chalked this round up as lost and is preparing for the next one. Now that the Corps have expanded their powers once, they'll more than likely try it again.

>Why does Devlin think that everyone letting Earth get away with this
>will _not_ cause a conflict? And why isn't he worried?

He does think it will lead to conflict; his quote is a reference to the 20th-century British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, who gave away about half of Europe to Hitler in the late thirties rather than fight the war everybody else in the world could already see was inevitable. Devlin is being snide, comparing the nations that didn't protest this "internal" move on the Corps' part to the countries that knuckled under to Hitler when he grabbed Austria and then had the gall to be surprised when he invaded Poland. And who says he isn't worried? Just because he never says he is...

>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?

This's been covered elsewhere, but - so they can prove, if asked, that they've already been screened and come out flat-scale on the TP meter. Supposedly, that makes them exempt from the Corps' enforcement powers, and thus entitled to file protests and the like if they are harassed by officers of the Corps.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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drakensisthered
Charter Member
Aug-03-01, 02:43 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #5
 
   >>Why does Devlin think that everyone letting Earth get away with this
>>will _not_ cause a conflict? And why isn't he worried?
>
>He does think it will lead to conflict; his quote is a reference to
>the 20th-century British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, who gave
>away about half of Europe to Hitler in the late thirties rather than
>fight the war everybody else in the world could already see was
>inevitable. Devlin is being snide, comparing the nations that didn't
>protest this "internal" move on the Corps' part to the countries that
>knuckled under to Hitler when he grabbed Austria and then had the gall
>to be surprised when he invaded Poland.

That's not entirely correct/ Yes Chamberlain was a pillock and the whle 'peace in our time' was dumb, but coldbloodedly, there were reasons to let Hitler expand into Czechoslovakia.
a) Britain and it's allies of the day had no ability to deploy forces to stop him... we declared war over Poland and look how many troops we sent there. Roughly none.
b) The British Army of the day was realistically no match for the Germans in number or quality. And the Royal Air Force was not yet the force that would later win the Battle of Britain. The year or so before the outbreak of the war and the months of Phony War were crucial to Britain being prepared to fight the war. Historical evidence suggests that the Germans considered themselves twice as capable as British soldiers on a one-to-one comparison, as opposed to ten times as capable as Russian of American troops! This would have been very different without the buid up time.

Obviously this has nothing to do with the thread though.

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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goldenfire
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Aug-02-01, 05:17 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #0
 
   minor nitpick:

irregardless is a double negative...you seem to have meant "regardless"

sorry, this is just one that really bugs me, whenever I see it


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trigger
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1500 posts
Aug-02-01, 05:28 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #7
 
   >minor nitpick:
>
>irregardless is a double negative...you seem to have meant
>"regardless"
>
>sorry, this is just one that really bugs me, whenever I see it

gomen nasai. I was raised in the midwestern United States. While this alone was enough to doom me, I also suffered a second blow. I attended public schools until I turned eighteen. I graduated with honors from various schools without: (a) learning how to spell, (b) writing the Kings English, and (c) proofreading.

This, is why I went to a private college. They slapped me around for four years then graduated me with the same skill set. Fortunately, the job was willing to pay for business writing and a basic grammar course. Alas, I'm dependent on my spell checker.

If you think I'm awful now, just imagine me then...

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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Neophyte
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111 posts
Aug-03-01, 01:39 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #9
 
   Hey... What's wrong with public schools? The ones I've gone to aren't all that bad, and I'm starting at another one in less than a month.
-------
Y. Michael Chang
Laguna Hills, CA


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trigger
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1500 posts
Aug-03-01, 10:16 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #15
 
   >Hey... What's wrong with public schools? The ones I've gone to
>aren't all that bad, and I'm starting at another one in less than a
>month.

In principle nothing. It's just that they often fail in their primary purpose: educating people. Instead you get "validation". It was particularly awful in my area because the public I went was the best in the county, had great teachers, and amazingly low standards. At the time I thought it was best school in existence. I was convinced I was a princess of the universe and one of the best educated kids out there.

Arrogant wasn't I?

It's only when I went to college that I realized how poorly prepared I was for the rigor and the standards. Of course, I went to university of chicago, so the effect was a little magnified opposed to say, university of illinois or kansas.

What happened is that the schools' teachers had created a curve to standardize teaching. This inverted bell gave the honors kids and the failing kids the most attention. The kids in the middle, you'd know, 80% of the population, recieved less funding and less attention. Worse, the English department had 1/3 the funding of math or science, or foriegn language. History had 1/8.

The latter didn't effect me because I love history and would have been intense about it no matter what. The former effected everyone equally - my friend, who was first in the class, was forced by her _grad_ school to take a writing course because of her egregious grammar. My younger sister (who went to two different high schools) is just as bad as I was. I've read her papers; they are masterpieces of incoherent thought and chock full of run-on sentences. We're all graduates of the public system honor's program. Imagine what happened to the average tracked kids...

I think if you can identify the deficits in the public school programs for you personally, and if you can receive extra tutoring on the side, you will be fine. Unfortunately, if your parents aren't educated (mine barely got out of high school and one is not a native english speaker) or if there isn't someone helping you identify the weaknesses in your education, you won't catch them until much later.

As I have no personal experience with private high schools, I'm not sure if this is a problem for them. Several friends and roomates attended private schoools and they indicated that a lot more personal attention was given to students. Several said that this let them improve in areas where they were typically weak. Personally, I think individualized attention versus the warehouse system we had at my school would make all the difference in the public school system.

That said, enjoy school this semester!

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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Perko
Charter Member
Aug-03-01, 12:22 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #20
 
   >Arrogant wasn't I?

No, right were you, in Yodaish.

The concentration on Sports and pandering to Average made me the wonderful, arrogant, authority-hating, sports-hating, good-natured person I am today.

So I have to agree with Argee. My pet peeve.

-Craig


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Neophyte
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111 posts
Aug-03-01, 02:45 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #20
 
   >In principle nothing. It's just that they often fail in their primary
>purpose: educating people. Instead you get "validation". It was
>particularly awful in my area because the public I went was the best
>in the county, had great teachers, and amazingly low standards.
>Arrogant wasn't I?

Yes, standards. I've actually noticed the reverse here. I've been helping out an old teacher of mine this summer for some extra cash and been able to get a look at the actual standards, the ones for English, at least. All I can say is that they go from rediculously simple in elementary and intermediate school to extremely difficult in high school. It's as if they expect students to learn everything in the last four years. Better to work up to it more gradually, I think. I guess you could say I'm lucky, I haven't noticed too many holes in my education, but I guess getting involved in academic decathlon probably filled those. I'm still not quite sure exactly when to use a semicolon, though.

>What happened is that the schools' teachers had created a curve to
>standardize teaching. This inverted bell gave the honors kids and the
>failing kids the most attention. The kids in the middle, you'd know,
>80% of the population, recieved less funding and less attention.
>Worse, the English department had 1/3 the funding of math or science,
>or foriegn language. History had 1/8.

Well, that's to be expected. I know the physics department at my high school got some nice new computers. But they use them for labs, force probes and motion detectors and such. History can be taught straight from the book. I'd bet if the school gave the history department those computers, they wouldn't know what to do with them.

>That said, enjoy school this semester!

Thanks, I hope I do. All in all, one of the main problems with public schools in the United States, in my opinion, is the lack of uniformity. Every state, in fact, every school district pretty establishes its own standards. Those standards that I mentioned before were district standards. Someone higher up needs to set some higher minimums and get everyone to follow them. But I guess that's what this most recent deal with standardized testing is all about. There are more and more tests every year. If I were a few years younger, I'd have to take a high school exit exam to graduate.

Well, let this be a lesson to you all. Pay attention to your kids' education. Make sure they're learning everything they need to. Don't let the bureaucrats decide what's good enough.

-------
Y. Michael Chang
Laguna Hills, CA


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drakensisthered
Charter Member
Aug-03-01, 07:21 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: education sub-thread"
In response to message #25
 
   Makes me glad to be a product of the UK educational system. Streamed classes by ability, national exams at 16 and 18, the first year of three at university (majority of courses are 3 year) is to recap last year of school. It's demanding, a pain in the ass and very tiring, but just learning enough to spew it all back in exams probably leaves you with fairly adequate education (assuming that you pass a reasonable number of exams - failing to do this is a BAD THING.)

Validation? What the school wants is high exam grades, and they can't water down the tests to boost the results so they have to push the students.

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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Neophyte
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111 posts
Aug-03-01, 11:42 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: education sub-thread"
In response to message #27
 
   >Validation? What the school wants is high exam grades, and they can't
>water down the tests to boost the results so they have to push the
>students.

You can in Texas (no offense intended toward those who have gone through Texas's schools, I blame the bureaucrats (again)). State-wide standardized test scores went up, while SAT scores went down. Hmm.... Something smells fishy...

-------
Y. Michael Chang
Laguna Hills, CA


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Polychrome
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476 posts
Aug-03-01, 01:38 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #0
 
   >Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?

Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?

Polychrome


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Alathaniel
Charter Member
Aug-03-01, 09:44 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #14
 
   >>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>
>Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are
>going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?

Only if Zoner or his contacts couldn't get into the Psi Corps main database.
My money is on the Ministry of Peace deciding to cause prob ... er, carry out
it's legitimate, government sanctioned mission.

Alath A'Tharen

The corps is happy. The corps is crazy.
The corps wants you to be happy. This will make you crazy.


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Spornoc
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Aug-03-01, 10:11 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #19
 
   >>>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>>Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are
>>going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?
>Only if Zoner or his contacts couldn't get into the Psi Corps main
>database.

why would it matter...a quicck test will reveal that the person is not
a tp

>My money is on the Ministry of Peace deciding to cause prob ... er,
>carry out it's legitimate, government sanctioned mission.

????


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Nathan
Charter Member
1324 posts
Aug-03-01, 10:45 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #29
 
   >>My money is on the Ministry of Peace deciding to cause prob ... er,
>>carry out it's legitimate, government sanctioned mission.
>
>????

Nightwatch, IIRC. Think SS.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter


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Redneck
Charter Member
Aug-04-01, 03:14 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #29
 
   >>>>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>>>Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are
>>>going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?
>>Only if Zoner or his contacts couldn't get into the Psi Corps main
>>database.
>
>why would it matter...a quicck test will reveal that the person is not
>a tp

The quick test would require, IIRC, a telepathic probe, which is a violation of privacy that Earthdome doesn't have the political support- YET- to push on the people.

There is a medical exam available to detect esper talents, but it requires medical training and specialized, finely tuned equipment- not something a beat PsiCop will have in the field.

Redneck


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Polychrome
Charter Member
476 posts
Aug-04-01, 03:38 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #29
 
   >>>>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>>>Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are
>>>going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?
>>Only if Zoner or his contacts couldn't get into the Psi Corps main
>>database.
>
>why would it matter...a quicck test will reveal that the person is not
>a tp

"Very well, you are not a telepath, so you will not be conscripted. You will, however, be arrested for forgery."

Polychrome


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Chris Redfield
Charter Member
255 posts
Aug-04-01, 01:47 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #36
 
   >"Very well, you are not a telepath, so you will not be conscripted.
>You will, however, be arrested for forgery."
>
>Polychrome

I will be very impressed with the person who can detect a forgery provided by MegaZone and his formidable resources

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!


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Polychrome
Charter Member
476 posts
Aug-04-01, 02:07 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #37
 
   >>"Very well, you are not a telepath, so you will not be conscripted.
>>You will, however, be arrested for forgery."
>>
>>Polychrome
>
>I will be very impressed with the person who can detect a forgery
>provided by MegaZone and his formidable resources

If they have a card, but are not in the database, the card is obviously a forgery.

Polychrome


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trigger
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1500 posts
Aug-04-01, 02:39 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #38
 
  
>If they have a card, but are not in the database, the card is
>obviously a forgery.

When you have Eve and Skuld on your side, I suspect that the card would be reigistered.

t.


Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.


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megazone
Charter Member
Aug-04-01, 08:30 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #37
 
   >I will be very impressed with the person who can detect a forgery
>provided by MegaZone and his formidable resources

Very true. It is highly unlikely anyone would be able to detect it without a lot of work.

Not that unusual - if, say, a government set its resources to counterfeiting something they could almost certainly produce an exact reproduction. They do it regularly enough to produce false documents for spies and such.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay


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trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Aug-03-01, 11:16 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #14
 
   >>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>
>Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are
>going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?

In all likelihood, that would only cause a major problem if it turned out that one of the fake cards' owners turned out to actually be a teep.

--truss.


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zojojojo
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610 posts
Aug-03-01, 02:37 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #21
 
   >>>Also, why does everyone need a Psi Corp card?
>>
>>Anybody else get the feeling all those fake Psi Corps ID cards are
>>going to come back around and bite somebody on the ass?
>
>In all likelihood, that would only cause a major problem if it turned
>out that one of the fake cards' owners turned out to actually
>be a teep.

which is only likely to happen if they really ticked off the psi-beat-cop (beat-psi-cop?) that was checking their papers, or if somebody (Liza?) got conclusive proof that they were a teep and sent it along... i don't see any of this crowd being quite careless enough for either to happen...

on the other hand, if the corps decided to do a major sweep of the are, complete with testing, then there might be problems... though i don't see how pissing off the political head of Zeta Cygni, the leadership of the WDF, several Norse Gods and the Greatest Scientific Mind In The Universe would be in the corps' best interest, either...

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.


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Mephronmoderator
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1763 posts
Aug-03-01, 03:20 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #24
 
   >on the other hand, if the corps decided to do a major sweep of the
>are, complete with testing, then there might be problems... though i
>don't see how pissing off the political head of Zeta Cygni, the
>leadership of the WDF, several Norse Gods and the Greatest Scientific
>Mind In The Universe would be in the corps' best interest, either...

I'm reminded of a comment in 'Rite of Passage' from Zoner about the fact that, in general, the WDF doesn't actually CARE about those silly little 'Diplomatic Incident' things.

I have this image, suddenly, of Concordia defolding, with a bunch of the WDF fold-capable ships coming in with it, and the screen in Earthdome resolving to show Gryphon, in uniform, standing there. And he says, quite calmly:

"My daughter and her friends are late coming home from school. I do hope you didn't decide she needed to stay for detention. She's very well behaved, and if I find she was punished for no reason, I could become just... a little... peeved."

Of course, I think they'd just deport them all, probably in a way designed to be the most irritating. Part of me also wonders if the unpleasant parts of Earthdome who are starting all this trouble would try to make sure that even if they were departed, they don't get home... alive.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)


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remandeteam
Member since Jul-31-07
78 posts
Aug-04-01, 02:29 AM (EST)
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32. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #26
 
   >I have this image, suddenly, of Concordia defolding, with a bunch of
>the WDF fold-capable ships coming in with it, and the screen in
>Earthdome resolving to show Gryphon, in uniform, standing there. And
>he says, quite calmly:
>
>"My daughter and her friends are late coming home from school. I do
>hope you didn't decide she needed to stay for detention. She's very
>well behaved, and if I find she was punished for no reason, I could
>become just... a little... peeved."
>--
>Geoff Depew - Mephron

All of a sudden, this has gone from straight UF to Teenagers from Outer Space.

--rR


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Star Ranger4
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2208 posts
Aug-04-01, 02:37 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #32
 
   >
>All of a sudden, this has gone from straight UF to >href="http://www.talsorian.com/tfosindex.shtml";]Teenagers from Outer
>Space.
>

Hey.... I happen to LIKE TFOS, and it was the gateway for me into one of the best mecha RPG's ever, their Mekton line.

I actually got to play TFOS the first con after it was introduced, in a game run by the Lead Writer, no less... I had a spiffin blast!!!!

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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Chris Redfield
Charter Member
255 posts
Aug-04-01, 02:56 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #24
 
   >which is only likely to happen if they really ticked off the
>psi-beat-cop (beat-psi-cop?) that was checking their papers, or if
>somebody (Liza?) got conclusive proof that they were a teep and sent
>it along... i don't see any of this crowd being quite careless enough
>for either to happen...
>
>on the other hand, if the corps decided to do a major sweep of the
>are, complete with testing, then there might be problems... though i
>don't see how pissing off the political head of Zeta Cygni, the
>leadership of the WDF, several Norse Gods and the Greatest Scientific
>Mind In The Universe would be in the corps' best interest, either...

So, what about the posibility that this Psi Corps stuff isn't really going to affect these kids much at all. What if its just building atmosphere for later Future Imperfect works. The focus of this series doesn't seem to be about this group of kids fighting for epic changes in the world... At least not THIS world.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Aug-04-01, 05:25 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #0
 
   >Won't be too long
>before they're pushing a similar Extension for the whole Federation,
>and if the outer races back off instead of fightin'... well, 'peace in
>our time,' as they say."

Can we say "civil war", boys and girls?

Which, of course, could be just what certain interested parties want...

It'll also be interesting to see just what has MoP sniffing around the kids. Is it just Kate and Mia's family backgrounds, or is there something more to it?

Very nicely done. The politics even make sense... in B5, it was the Earth-Minbari War that sparked paranoia on Earth; here, it's (presumably) the Genom Occupation.

Now, if only one of the people who challenged Liza (officially or otherwise) had been using a daiklaive(1)...

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

(1) A mystical sword from White Wolf's new Exalted game that is as fast and agile as a katana... despite having a blade four feet long and six inches wide.


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-04-01, 06:11 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #40
 
   >Now, if only one of the people who challenged Liza (officially or
>otherwise) had been using a daiklaive(1)...
>
>(1) A mystical sword from White Wolf's new Exalted game that is
>as fast and agile as a katana... despite having a blade four feet long
>and six inches wide.

Well, clearly, the only member of the IBGF who would be suitable for such a weapon is Azalynn, and she's a lover, not a fighter. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Aug-04-01, 06:40 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #41
 
   >
>Well, clearly, the only member of the IBGF who would be suitable for
>such a weapon is Azalynn, and she's a lover, not a fighter. :)
>

Oh, I don't know. I could see Moose MacEchearn as a Zenith-caste Solar Exalted.

In fact, the more I think about this, the more sense it makes. Moose seems to be on something of a spiritual quest, after all... having the Unconquered Sun proclaim him one of its chosen would be just -too- perfect!

Of course, the Unconquered Sun(1) probably doesn't -exist- in the UF universe, but what the hell... :)

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

(1) Anyone who's curious about all the Exalted refs, go over to http://www.white-wolf.com/exalted and have a look around... I don't want to clutter the board with explanations.


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-04-01, 06:56 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #42
 
   >(1) Anyone who's curious about all the Exalted refs, go over to
>http://www.white-wolf.com/exalted and have a look around... I don't
>want to clutter the board with explanations.

Hmm...

Earthdawn in the World of Insufficient Light.

Um, pass.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Aug-04-01, 07:08 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #43
 
   >Earthdawn in the World of Insufficient Light.
>
>Um, pass.

(snicker) Not a World of Darkness fan, I take it?

Seriously, I can see why. I'm not really one either, except for Hunter. Although I picked up the Exalted Limited Edition last week, and the tone's not really the same. I might try Earthdawn one of these days.

I don't play them, though. Just collect them.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net


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Laudre
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Aug-05-01, 00:41 AM (EST)
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47. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #44
 
   >>Earthdawn in the World of Insufficient Light.
>>
>>Um, pass.
>
>(snicker) Not a World of Darkness fan, I take it?
>
>Seriously, I can see why. I'm not really one either, except for
>Hunter. Although I picked up the Exalted Limited Edition
>last week, and the tone's not really the same. I might try
>Earthdawn one of these days.

...Hunter?

You like Hunter?

So you're the one buying all of that crap.

(For those who don't quite grok the tone, I loathe Hunter. It's a game about ordinary people fighting supernatural beings... by gaining supernatural powers. And the game goes on and on about the high mortality rate among Hunters, but everything in it supports characters who live quite a long time. Ugh. I'd love to find The Hunters Hunted, but it doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon. That was a game that got it right.)

Earthdawn... there's a lot of things I rather like about the setting, but the first edition is severely flawed. I have yet to see the second edition, but I'm hoping it'll be... y'know... coherent.

Exalted... I haven't yet read the book itself; I'm waiting for the unlimited edition. But the art is lush, what I've read of the setting is wildly imaginative (and it is far, far more intense than Earthdawn; Earthdawn is epic fantasy with a somewhat unusual set of humans in funny clothes, and some fancy terminology; Exalted is pretty damn far from traditional epic fantasy, and a lot more alien), and it's a prequel to the World of Darkness, not really set in it, either tone-wise or thematically.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-05-01, 00:59 AM (EST)
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49. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #47
 
   >Earthdawn... there's a lot of things I rather like about
>the setting, but the first edition is severely flawed.

Well, of course. It was the first edition of a FASA game. That meant two things were inevitable: the mechanics would be broken in interesting ways, and the binding would fall apart almost instantaneously.

>Exalted... I haven't yet read the book itself; I'm
>waiting for the unlimited edition. But the art is lush, what I've
>read of the setting is wildly imaginative

I've noticed over the last few years that "wildly imaginative" can often be read "unfathomably pretentious", especially where White Wolf's output is concerned. Although if Mark Rein-splat-Hagen wasn't involved, I suppose it might be palatable.

>and it's a prequel to
>the World of Darkness, not really set in it, either tone-wise or
>thematically.

Ah. Exalted is to the World of Insufficient Light as Earthdawn is to Shadowrun, eh? Interesting.

The thing that ticks me off about all the White Wolf material I've seen, aside from the consistently excruciating pretention level, is the fact that they're all based on the central theme, "Your character is inevitably doomed.[1] Try and do stuff for as long as you can, but sooner or later, no matter how careful you are, you're going to have to start all over."

--G.
[1] Except in Wraith, where your character is already dead.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Peter Eng
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1455 posts
Aug-05-01, 01:31 AM (EST)
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51. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #49
 
   >
>The thing that ticks me off about all the White Wolf material I've
>seen, aside from the consistently excruciating pretention level, is
>the fact that they're all based on the central theme, "Your character
>is inevitably doomed.[1] Try and do stuff for as long as you can,
>but sooner or later, no matter how careful you are, you're going to
>have to start all over."
>
>--G.
>

My personal annoyance came from the feeling of, "There is a Great Evil out there that only A Select Group knows about. You are One Of That Group, but you're going to spend more time on politics, schism, and disagreement than going out there and stopping the Great Evil."

If I wanted entertainment where the major point is that the people who should be opposing evil are spending their time arguing about how the evil should be opposed, I'd watch C-SPAN, or go to a PTA meeting.

Peter Eng
--
TOON
Hampire: The Masked Ace Raid
It's a Dark World After All


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Aug-05-01, 02:04 AM (EST)
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52. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #49
 
   >The thing that ticks me off about all the White Wolf material I've
>seen, aside from the consistently excruciating pretention level, is
>the fact that they're all based on the central theme, "Your character
>is inevitably doomed.[1] Try and do stuff for as long as you can,
>but sooner or later, no matter how careful you are, you're going to
>have to start all over."

Have you seen Trinity (psionics/space opera) or Aberrant (near future superhero)? Those are both set in different time periods of the same universe (not World of Darkness), along with Adventure, WW's upcoming 30's pulp fiction game. Can't say whether they would be "pretentious" or not by your standards, because I've never really looked at WW's World of Darkness games, apart from Hunter. For some reason, the thought of playing a bloodsucking demon or ghost never seemed to appeal to me.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net


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Perko
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Aug-05-01, 02:38 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #52
 
   >Have you seen Trinity (psionics/space opera) or Aberrant
>(near future superhero)? Those are both set in different time periods
>of the same universe (not World of Darkness), along with
>Adventure, WW's upcoming 30's pulp fiction game. Can't say
>whether they would be "pretentious" or not by your standards, because
>I've never really looked at WW's World of Darkness games, apart from
>Hunter. For some reason, the thought of playing a bloodsucking
>demon or ghost never seemed to appeal to me.

Aberrant = extremely crooked and lumpy power scale, maker of twinks, double your power with two experience points... Not fond of it, really. If I want a power spike like that, I can use one of my earlier systems.

-Craig


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NightmareButterfly
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Aug-05-01, 02:18 AM (EST)
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55. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #49
 
   >Well, of course. It was the first edition of a FASA game. That meant
>two things were inevitable: the mechanics would be broken in
>interesting ways, and the binding would fall apart almost
>instantaneously.

The only RPG books I've ever found that fall apart faster than FASA's are Games Workshop's. I swear, about 6 pages of my Warhammer 40k rules book fell out by the time I got home from the store. Never, ever start playing Warhammer 40k, btw. It's a money devouring addiction worse than Magic: TG.

>The thing that ticks me off about all the White Wolf material I've
>seen, aside from the consistently excruciating pretention level, is
>the fact that they're all based on the central theme, "Your character
>is inevitably doomed.[1] Try and do stuff for as long as you can,
>but sooner or later, no matter how careful you are, you're going to
>have to start all over."

I've found that it all (of course) depends on who you're playing with. Even then, the sheer pretention level of Mage and especially Vampire turns me off. The gloom and doom can most easily be downplayed in Werewolf. I've played a couple of great Werewolf games... I think it's because it's the only White Wolf game where you actually play a hero, besides Hunter- which I haven't had a chance to look at much. Anyway, it's always fun to play a 9-foot slavering beast with huge claws. I like the nature theme in Werewolf, too.

-Nightmare Butterfly
I spent about $500 on my Tyranid army. Kill me.


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Gryphonadmin
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19264 posts
Aug-05-01, 03:07 AM (EST)
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56. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #55
 
   >Werewolf. I've played a couple of great Werewolf games... I think it's
>because it's the only White Wolf game where you actually play a hero,
>besides Hunter- which I haven't had a chance to look at much. Anyway,
>it's always fun to play a 9-foot slavering beast with huge claws. I
>like the nature theme in Werewolf, too.

I tried to read the Werewolf rulebook once, but I got tired of being repeatedly bludgeoned over the head, bloodied and knocked unconscious by its extremely subtle ecological-consciousness message.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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NightmareButterfly
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Aug-05-01, 03:45 AM (EST)
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57. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #56
 
   >I tried to read the Werewolf rulebook once, but I got tired of
>being repeatedly bludgeoned over the head, bloodied and knocked
>unconscious by its extremely subtle ecological-consciousness message.

Yeah, I'll admit that you have to read between the lines a bit to get that. It seems that Werewolves like nature, as far as I can gather.

-Nightmare Butterfly
My favorite cartoon when I was a kid was Captain Planet. No, I didn't have cable, why?


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Spornoc
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Aug-14-01, 05:26 PM (EST)
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70. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #55
 
   > Never, ever start playing Warhammer 40k, btw. It's a money devouring
> addiction worse than Magic: TG.

heard that about it...unfortunately the universe interests me so i keep trying to get ahold of the rule books


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Matrix Dragon
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1731 posts
Aug-14-01, 06:36 PM (EST)
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71. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #70
 
   >> Never, ever start playing Warhammer 40k, btw. It's a money devouring
>> addiction worse than Magic: TG.
>heard that about it...unfortunately the universe interests me so i keep trying >to get ahold of the rule books

Heh... I've ended up with tons of rulebooks, a few dozen models and some of the novels. I don't play it much but it's got story potential if you do it right.

Matrix Dragon


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remandeteam
Member since Jul-31-07
78 posts
Aug-14-01, 09:46 PM (EST)
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72. "Warhammer 40K"
In response to message #71
 
   >>> Never, ever start playing Warhammer 40k, btw. It's a money devouring
>>> addiction worse than Magic: TG.
>>heard that about it...unfortunately the universe interests me so i keep trying >to get ahold of the rule books
>
>Heh... I've ended up with tons of rulebooks, a few dozen models and
>some of the novels. I don't play it much but it's got story potential
>if you do it right.
>
>Matrix Dragon

There are novels?

I once read the rulebook (a roommate had it). I wasn't interested in hack and slash wargaming, and was disappointed that there was no related RPG, since the universe they describe is incredible.

Any W40K fans should pick up a copy of Blue Oyster Cult's "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" (either the Heavy Metal soundtrack or the band's Fire of Unknown Origin). In my head, that track has always carried the subtitle "Emperor's lament", and I can no longer separate the song from the tired old man.

--rR


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Laudre
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Aug-05-01, 03:49 AM (EST)
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58. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #49
 
   >I've noticed over the last few years that "wildly imaginative" can
>often be read "unfathomably pretentious", especially where White
>Wolf's output is concerned. Although if Mark Rein-splat-Hagen wasn't
>involved, I suppose it might be palatable.

Well, I can't really argue with you on this, since neither of us (I'm assuming) has actually read Exalted. I think my favorite overall WW game, in terms of setting and feel, is Mage: The Sorcerer's Crusade. Far less gloom-and-doomy than any of the other games, and it pulls of a wonderfully epic feel. It's like a more worldly version of Ars Magica (which I think was the purpose; they even talk about troupe-style play, which is one of Ars Magica's lynchpins). What I've read of Exalted just strikes me as something as wildly different and effective at its purpose, as, say, GURPS Technomancer. It's got me excited in a way I haven't been excited about any White Wolf product since Aberrant (which is good, but was slightly disappointing, for reasons I've tried to define but can't).

>Ah. Exalted is to the World of Insufficient Light as
>Earthdawn is to Shadowrun, eh? Interesting.

Yeah, pretty much. Except that White Wolf is promoting Exalted as a prequel, while FASA never confirmed the relationship between the two (to my knowledge, anyway).

>The thing that ticks me off about all the White Wolf material I've
>seen, aside from the consistently excruciating pretention level, is
>the fact that they're all based on the central theme, "Your character
>is inevitably doomed.[1] Try and do stuff for as long as you can,
>but sooner or later, no matter how careful you are, you're going to
>have to start all over."

Well, pretention is more in the playing than the game, and much of what's in the books is for the purpose of building atmosphere, mood, and theme. The amount of gloom-and-doom also depends on the storyteller and gamers. Vampire and Hunter make hope pretty hard to sustain, but in Werewolf, Mage (especially 2nd edition, which I vastly prefer over Revised), Changeling, and Wraith, hope is possible, and vitally important. Yes, you're facing towering odds, and you'll probably die in the fight, but without hope, Garou enter Harano, Mages can go nutso or join the Nephandi, Changelings cease to *be* changelings, and while Wraiths are already dead, for them there's the hope to go beyond ghosthood. And in Kindred of the East, you've sunk about as far as it's possible to sink, and now you've attained a chance for redemption by crawling back from Hell itself. And even the Cainites have a shot at Golconda, which means they transcend their curse.

Yes, you can get mired down in politics. Yes, you can die in the process. But that just means you've got near-insurmountable obstacles. But they're not totally insurmountable. And, no, these characters aren't necessarily heroes, but they can become them.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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junipermoderator
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506 posts
Aug-06-01, 01:59 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: Shadowrun and Earthdawn"
In response to message #58
 
   >>Ah. Exalted is to the World of Insufficient Light as
>>Earthdawn is to Shadowrun, eh? Interesting.
>
>Yeah, pretty much. Except that White Wolf is promoting
>Exalted as a prequel, while FASA never confirmed the
>relationship between the two (to my knowledge, anyway).

Harlequin's Back is basically an Earthdawn module that got transported to Shadowrun. And it does link the two quite strongly. I'll include the basic plot at the bottom for those who don't want spoilers.

Beyond which, there's the fact that Harlequin is referenced in several places as a Knight of the Crimson Spire, and Sereatha in Earthdawn is the Elven City of Spires, with various Knights of the Crimson Spire basically being their heroes. Oh, not to mention that Dunkelzahn was Mountainshadow?

The two were linked (towards the end of Fasa's publishing life, to be sure) and a whole bunch of Shadowrun and Earthdawn players rose up and said, "Hey! We don't want their kind (pointing to the other group) here!"

I kind of liked the idea, but lots of folks didn't. <shrug>

-- Juniper

-----------------------------------------------------------
<spoiler about Harlequin's Back>
The Horrors are returning early, because the second Great Ghost Dance (the one lead by Daniel Howling Coyote) has made an Astral Bridge with a high enough magic level that the Horrors can cross over through. They'd be coming in the next hundred years or so, but they're coming early and the Earth hasn't had time to prepare for them. The PCs are sent on an Astral Quest by Harlequin (who I'm told had Vestrial appear in his fireplace to warn him) to find a thing of perfect beauty - a song - to hold the Horrors at bay long enough for the Corps and Shadowrunners to gear up and power up and for tech to progress enough that this time the world won't have to retreat to the Kaers.

As I said, it's an Earthdawn plot in the Shadowrun universe.
</spoiler>


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Star Ranger4
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Aug-09-01, 01:42 AM (EST)
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69. "RE: Shadowrun and Earthdawn"
In response to message #60
 
   >
>The two were linked (towards the end of Fasa's publishing life, to be
>sure) and a whole bunch of Shadowrun and Earthdawn players rose up and
>said, "Hey! We don't want their kind (pointing to the other group)
>here!"
>

Yes, and no. Yes, Earthdawn, when first introduced, was meant to be RP'ing in the 4th world to SR's 6th. That was when Harlequin was printed and released.

However, later on, once Mike Mulhevil took over as Line editor (About the time that SR3 was laid down) he didn't like that idea, so he declared that the horrors were not comming, and that ED wasn't really set in SR's past.

I should also note, though, that more than one GM has decided that they like the idea of an overarching plot, that of certain immortals struggling to get the 6th world ready for the eventual invasion of the horrors, and continue to use it for their own campaing worlds.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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Verbena
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771 posts
Aug-07-01, 09:40 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #58
 
  
>Well, pretention is more in the playing than the game, and much of
>what's in the books is for the purpose of building atmosphere, mood,
>and theme. The amount of gloom-and-doom also depends on the
>storyteller and gamers. Vampire and Hunter
>make hope pretty hard to sustain, but in Werewolf,
>Mage (especially 2nd edition, which I vastly prefer over
>Revised), Changeling, and Wraith, hope is
>possible, and vitally important. Yes, you're facing towering odds,
>and you'll probably die in the fight, but without
>hope, Garou enter Harano, Mages can go nutso or join the Nephandi,
>Changelings cease to *be* changelings, and while Wraiths are already
>dead, for them there's the hope to go beyond ghosthood. And in
>Kindred of the East, you've sunk about as far as it's
>possible to sink, and now you've attained a chance for redemption by
>crawling back from Hell itself. And even the Cainites have a shot at
>Golconda, which means they transcend their curse.

I fully agree with everything you've said, and furthermore I note as I look at my gaming books that ever since everything moved to 3rd edition (D&D, Shadowrun, WW especially) I stopped -buying- more books. Funny, that. Mage is one of my all-time favorite systems, and I can't help but glance through Revised and be -angry-. If I wanted a game where everyone I knew was on the brink of disaster, running panicked from a totally unbeatable, invincible foe, I'd friggin' play Paranoia. I never could stand that game...and Mage Revised makes me just as angry.


--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."


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Laudre
Charter Member
Aug-08-01, 09:45 PM (EST)
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67. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #64
 
   >Funny, that. Mage is one of my all-time favorite systems, and I can't
>help but glance through Revised and be -angry-.

I'm pissed mostly because Mage Revised basically says, "Oh, sorry, these guys were powerful and actually had a hope of winning, so we have to gut them now. So, um, the Technocracy won, and True Magick no longer works like it used to, and we're going to stop putting that 'k' on the end that drives home the distinction between willworkers and everyone else. Oh, and we're going to contradict that by making hedge mages more powerful, even though the paradigm that allowed them to do what little they could do is gone, and putting them on even footing with True Mages, which goes against the whole original point of Mage." Like I said in another thread, the revised editions of Mage and Sorcerer were really just the new line editor wanking on about what he didn't like about Phil Brucato's work. No, thanks.

> If I wanted a game
>where everyone I knew was on the brink of disaster, running panicked
>from a totally unbeatable, invincible foe, I'd friggin' play Paranoia.
>I never could stand that game...and Mage Revised makes me just as
>angry.

I always enjoyed Paranoia, because it was totally, insanely, ridiculously over the top and completely tongue-in-cheek. It's also a great way to scare gaming newbies.

"Why did you kill my last clone?"
"MUTANT!" *zap*

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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drakensisthered
Charter Member
Aug-09-01, 00:49 AM (EST)
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68. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #67
 
   >I always enjoyed Paranoia, because it was totally,
>insanely, ridiculously over the top and completely tongue-in-cheek.
>It's also a great way to scare gaming newbies.
>
>"Why did you kill my last clone?"
>"MUTANT!" *zap*

What entertained me about Paranoia was our GM ruling that knowledge of what constituted a commie mutant traitor was classified above Red-level.

ZAP
Why'd you do that?
He was a commie mutant traitor!
How'd you know that?
Errrr...
ZAP


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Aug-05-01, 02:12 AM (EST)
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53. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #47
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-01 AT 02:19 AM (EDT)

>>>Earthdawn in the World of Insufficient Light.
>>>
>>>Um, pass.
>>
>>(snicker) Not a World of Darkness fan, I take it?
>>
>>Seriously, I can see why. I'm not really one either, except for
>>Hunter. Although I picked up the Exalted Limited Edition
>>last week, and the tone's not really the same. I might try
>>Earthdawn one of these days.
>
>...Hunter?
>
>You like Hunter?
>
>So you're the one buying all of that crap.
>
>(For those who don't quite grok the tone, I loathe
>Hunter. It's a game about ordinary people
>fighting supernatural beings... by gaining supernatural
>powers. And the game goes on and on about the
>high mortality rate among Hunters, but everything in it
>supports characters who live quite a long time. Ugh.
>I'd love to find The Hunters Hunted, but it
>doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon. That was a
>game that got it right.)
>

I was going to give a smart-ass answer to that, but I was afraid it would be taken the wrong way, so I'll just answer it straight up instead.

I think I got into it mostly because I'm a Buffy/Angel fan, and because I had a chance to get in on the ground floor, so to speak. If there were a bunch of supplements and stuff already out when I discovered it, I probably never would have bothered.

But what makes you think characters could live a long time? Given the relative power levels involved, it's like guerilla warfare against the supernatural, and win or lose, guerilla warfare is an extremely unhealthy lifestyle.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net


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Chris Redfield
Charter Member
255 posts
Aug-04-01, 09:01 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #42
 
   >Oh, I don't know. I could see Moose MacEchearn as a Zenith-caste Solar
>Exalted.

He could probably do just about as much damage with Hoffmanite throwing spoons.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!


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Star Ranger4
Charter Member
2208 posts
Aug-05-01, 00:46 AM (EST)
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48. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #46
 
   >>Oh, I don't know. I could see Moose MacEchearn as a Zenith-caste Solar
>>Exalted.
>
>He could probably do just about as much damage with Hoffmanite
>throwing spoons.
>

Awww.... Now your just Forking with us.

Somehow, I also don't see his mom giving him the family silver to help fight the shodows, either.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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Nathan
Charter Member
1324 posts
Aug-05-01, 01:10 AM (EST)
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50. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #48
 
   >>>Oh, I don't know. I could see Moose MacEchearn as a Zenith-caste Solar
>>>Exalted.
>>
>>He could probably do just about as much damage with Hoffmanite
>>throwing spoons.
>>
>
>Awww.... Now your just Forking with us.
>
>Somehow, I also don't see his mom giving him the family silver to help
>fight the shodows, either.

*blink*

Sudden, sick image of Amanda going into battle with a large clear spheroid with a skull inside...

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Actually, Kate seems better suited, but that would require whacking Gryph.)


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Mister Fnord
Charter Member
291 posts
Aug-05-01, 02:13 AM (EST)
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54. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #48
 
   >
>Awww.... Now your just Forking with us.

... my soul hurts.

Mr. Fnord, planning a HORRIBLE vengance, should you ever come within arm's reach.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"


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drakensisthered
Charter Member
Aug-06-01, 07:06 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #0
 
   The Psi Corp is your friend...

...in a rather unusual sense of friendship that involve suscking your brain out of your left ear and your ethics out the right...

...or the other way around, the Psi Corp is many things (few of them printable) but it's not handist...

...except as regards gloves.

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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Star Ranger4
Charter Member
2208 posts
Aug-06-01, 07:31 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #61
 
   >The Psi Corp is your friend...
>
>...in a rather unusual sense of friendship that involve suscking your
>brain out of your left ear and your ethics out the right...
>
>...or the other way around, the Psi Corp is many things (few of them
>printable) but it's not handist...
>
>...except as regards gloves.
>

Heh... Shades of Alpha complex. Its enough to give a good precognative a case of ... well... Paranoia.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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Perko
Charter Member
Aug-06-01, 10:45 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: The Psi Corp is your friend"
In response to message #62
 
   We'd like to help you. Don't think of it as kidnapping... think of it as... coming home.

-Craig


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