-Logan

	I would enter your sleep if I could, and guard you there, and slay the thing that hounds you as I would if it had the courage to face me in fair daylight. But I cannot come in unless you dream of me. --Prince Lir, The Last Unicorn

No, "Mary Sue" is a more general term than SI. To take the extreme example, Marissa Picard is definately a Mary Sue, even though Steven Ratliff isn't a nine year old girl.

First-season DJ (especially before we started seeing his flaws) definitely had Mary-Sue-ish characteristics -- the brilliant, handsome teenager who's better than everyone else at everything, and all the appropriate original characters of the opposite sex fall in love with him. But, just as UF proved that in the hands of a good enough writer, self-insertion can work, NXE proved the same things about Mary Sue.

Technically, no. In order to be a Self-Insert character, one must insert -himself- into the story.

Gryph wrote me into Season 1... I didn't join the writing team (and never had any -plans- to join the writing team) until Season 2, when I was struck with a way to use Shinji in NXE. (Gryph's response: "That sounds good... you get to write it." ;)

With the exception of, I think, two minor scenes and the occasional dialogue tweak (to make it sound like something I might actually say), I never wrote myself in NXE. :)

	John Trussell Tertiary Battle Muse Eyrie Productions, Unlimited It's all just one mistake after another.

Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno anymore.

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"I find your lack of clue disturbing."

"Self-insert by proxy", I think.

--Firefly

Tuckerization, after SF writer Wilson "Bob" Tucker. Google knows more.

"Cameo". Or maybe "tribute".

-- Bob
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Bill Gates is a white Persian cat and a monocle away from becoming another James Bond villain: "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to upgrade." -- Dennis Miller

Blackmail material?

Mistral

Victim?

No, that's only if David Weber or John Ringo are writing the story. :)

Redshirting, in various books published by Baen. (Even if the character survives more than one novel.)

This is the old Livingston Enterprises volunteering method: "Why don't we have <x>?" "Because you haven't done it yet." "... dammit."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Geoff, no. "Mary Sue" was the ostensible Original Self Insert, back in the days when Trek fanfiction was mimeographed and handed around.

-- Bob
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Bill Gates is a white Persian cat and a monocle away from becoming another James Bond villain: "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to upgrade." -- Dennis Miller

OK, all. Terminological debates rooted in Trek fandom are probably not appropriate.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Oh, the things a punster could do with that. But I won't, because I value my skin.

Anyhow...Given a large enough timeframe for the character to act in...any character will eventually become a Mary Sue/Marty Su. People will get better and better at what they do as time goes on. Give them enough time, and they'll become an expert at everything from needlepoint to advanced quantum mechanics.

I don't think it's entirely fair to judge a character 'in stasis'...look at FI Gryphon and you think 'Blatant self-insertion where he's a near god, GARBAGE!' but if you look at how the character was at the very start...and remember that there's more than four hundred years between them...

But I thought Hammer's last name was "Rose." :)

Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com

oh Heaven....

*palms face* HEHEHE