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Subject: "Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Gryphonadmin
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Apr-20-17, 06:39 PM (EST)
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"Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
 
   It is unlawful for a designer to specify plain slotted screws in most applications in the Republic of Zeta Cygni, because—and this is a direct quotation from the legislation—they are a monumental pain in the ass. Philips head* or GTFO. Violating this statute does not incur jail time, but there is a fine and you will get a nasty, nasty note from the Bureau of Standards.

--G.
* or Torx, or Allen, or Reed + Prince, or hex head cap screw, or fratzog lock, or whatever. The actual wording calls for "positively tool-locating fasteners".
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd [View All] Gryphonadmin Apr-20-17 TOP
  RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd JFerio Apr-20-17 1
     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MoonEyes Apr-21-17 2
         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd JFerio Apr-21-17 3
             RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Gryphonadmin Apr-21-17 4
     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Gryphonadmin Apr-21-17 5
     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Mercutio Apr-21-17 6
         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MoonEyes Apr-21-17 7
             RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Peter Eng Apr-21-17 8
                 RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MoonEyes Apr-22-17 13
                     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Star Ranger4 May-03-17 33
                         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MoonEyes May-03-17 35
             RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Mercutio Apr-21-17 9
                 RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd JFerio Apr-22-17 10
                     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Mercutio Apr-22-17 11
                         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd JFerio Apr-22-17 14
                 RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MoonEyes Apr-22-17 12
                     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Mercutio Apr-22-17 15
                         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd JFerio Apr-22-17 16
                             RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MuninsFire Apr-24-17 25
                     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd StClair Apr-25-17 26
                         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd MoonEyes Apr-25-17 27
                         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Gryphonadmin Apr-25-17 28
                             RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Mercutio Apr-26-17 29
                                 RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Gryphonadmin Apr-26-17 30
                                     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Mercutio Apr-26-17 31
                                         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Star Ranger4 May-03-17 34
  RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Gryphonadmin Apr-22-17 17
     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd CdrMike Apr-22-17 18
         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd McFortner Apr-22-17 19
             RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Croaker May-01-17 32
  RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd VoidRandom Apr-23-17 20
     RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd Gryphonadmin Apr-23-17 21
         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd NHO Apr-23-17 22
         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd mdg1 Apr-23-17 23
         RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd rwpikul Apr-23-17 24

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JFerio
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Apr-20-17, 07:44 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #0
 
   >It is unlawful for a designer to specify plain slotted screws in most
>applications in the Republic of Zeta Cygni, because—and this is a
>direct quotation from the legislation—they are a monumental pain in
>the ass. Philips head* or GTFO. Violating this statute does not
>incur jail time, but there is a fine and you will get a nasty, nasty
>note from the Bureau of Standards.

I would presume the specific exception are literally decorative only screws, that don't even hold the object in place in any way.

And yeah, slotted screws are pretty much a pain in the ass.

Also, would there happen to be matching legislation against security screws except in cases where people do need to be protected for safety? And I'm not talking "they might shock themselves on the power tap inside this radio", I'm talking "if they could remove this protective panel they could easily fall into the high current transformer feeding the building". Because the former can be prevented with proper engineering on the inside.

(I actually hate security screws more than I hate slotted screws. Slotted screws are just a pain in the ass. Security screws, in the scenarios I typically encounter them, are there just to keep you from servicing and modifying hardware you actually own, and thus dependent upon the manufacturer to do any servicing. And are a pain in the ass in a couple of cases because they don't engage even as well as slotted screws.)





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
745 posts
Apr-21-17, 06:07 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #1
 
   >I would presume the specific exception are literally decorative only
>screws

Ok...I have to wonder...where, exactly, would this be a thing? I'm trying to picture, but I can't see it?

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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JFerio
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Apr-21-17, 09:02 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #2
 
   >>I would presume the specific exception are literally decorative only
>>screws
>
>Ok...I have to wonder...where, exactly, would this be a thing? I'm
>trying to picture, but I can't see it?

Attached some other way, with the screws there to just achieve a "look" rather than being functional. Like the fake molded in screwheads on a plastic toy.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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Gryphonadmin
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Apr-21-17, 12:48 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-17 AT 12:48 PM (EDT)
 
>>>I would presume the specific exception are literally decorative only
>>>screws
>>
>>Ok...I have to wonder...where, exactly, would this be a thing? I'm
>>trying to picture, but I can't see it?
>
>Attached some other way, with the screws there to just achieve a
>"look" rather than being functional. Like the fake molded in
>screwheads on a plastic toy.

I used to have a desk chair that had chromed plastic caps made to look like old-timey slotted screw heads threaded on top of the holes where the Allen bolts went. Just gave it a cleaner, slightly retro look.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Gryphonadmin
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Apr-21-17, 12:50 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #1
 
   >Also, would there happen to be matching legislation against security
>screws except in cases where people do need to be protected for
>safety? And I'm not talking "they might shock themselves on the power
>tap inside this radio", I'm talking "if they could remove this
>protective panel they could easily fall into the high current
>transformer feeding the building".

My favorite "really?" application for the un-easily-reversible screws is in the panels that hold bathroom stalls together. Because, you know. You don't want someone being able to just come along and dismantle the stall while you're in there, how awkward.

--G.
I get that it's really meant to deter vandalism, but, really?
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
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902 posts
Apr-21-17, 02:46 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #1
 
   > Security screws, in the
>scenarios I typically encounter them, are there just to keep you from
>servicing and modifying hardware you actually own,

I would also assume that New Avalon has some fairly robust "right to repair" laws. If you want to sell, say, repulsorlifts, or omni-tools, or droids in New Avalon, you must provide the end-user or any third-party repairshop that requests it access to the firmware of said device, and you're also forbidden from designing the device to brick itself if someone swaps in a plasma coil with a higher induction rating because the plasma coil was made by Incom instead of the Corellian Engineering Corporation.

I sometimes imagine what kind of regulatory hellscape the Corporate Sector must be like. The rent-seeking out there must get pretty nuts.

I think about this kind of stuff a lot; I'm a huge Neal Stephenson fan because his books are full of what for lack of a better term I call "future logistics," actual in-depth examinations of what commerce, design, and law would be like in a sci-fi setting with weirdass technology. Discussions about how proprietary software licenses and unserviceable hardware interact with a world where you can install chrome into your own body are my jam.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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MoonEyes
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745 posts
Apr-21-17, 06:57 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #6
 
   And that brings its OWN mess, what with the possibility/probability of things going FZARK at best and ker-BLAMMO at worst, what with the thing most THOROUGHLY not being made to accept New Widget X as a replacement. Less because it's a no-name, and more because Widget X gives the item 3000 Whatcha-ma-callit and it's VERY specifically not rated for more that 1750....but Widget X FITS in there.

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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Peter Eng
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Apr-21-17, 07:17 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #7
 
   >And that brings its OWN mess, what with the possibility/probability of
>things going FZARK at best and ker-BLAMMO at worst, what with the
>thing most THOROUGHLY not being made to accept New Widget X as a
>replacement. Less because it's a no-name, and more because Widget X
>gives the item 3000 Whatcha-ma-callit and it's VERY specifically not
>rated for more that 1750....but Widget X FITS in there.
>

"Did you read the specifications?"
"Hey, it fit--"
"Did. You. Read. The specs."
"Well, no."
"Then this falls under subparagraph (c). It isn't built to take that, you exceeded the limits, all resulting damages are your own fault. Including the warehouse."

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
745 posts
Apr-22-17, 05:38 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #8
 
   Mmmm...well, in ZC, that would probably work. In OUR society? You know that would bring a law-suit, all the same.

And, even in ZC, that would breed resentment. "All I did was replace Widget X, and it burned my company down. Now, I'm destiture and homeless and it's all Gryphon's fault!" Sorta.


...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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Star Ranger4
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May-03-17, 02:30 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #13
 
   >Mmmm...well, in ZC, that would probably work. In OUR society? You know
>that would bring a law-suit, all the same.
>
>And, even in ZC, that would breed resentment. "All I did was replace
>Widget X, and it burned my company down. Now, I'm destiture and
>homeless and it's all Gryphon's fault!" Sorta.
>
>
I dunno. Most citizens of ZC seem not that type. I could see the conversation being more like...


"All I did was replace Widget X, and it burned my company down. Now, I'm destiture and homeless and it's all Gryphon's fault!"

"Did you read the specifications?"
"Hey, it fit--"
"Did. You. Read. The specs."
"Well, no."
"Then this falls under subparagraph (c). It isn't built to take that, you exceeded the limits, all resulting damages are your own fault. Including the warehouse. And you have no one to blame for your loss but yourself."


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
745 posts
May-03-17, 04:36 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #33
 
   Yeah....that's sort of what my post was in response to, yes.
And, considering that the UF universe contains Aztechnology, and that it has a large presence in Avalon county, as seen...well, I'd have to think there is sufficient evidence for my point.


...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
902 posts
Apr-21-17, 09:31 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #7
 
   >And that brings its OWN mess, what with the possibility/probability of
>things going FZARK at best and ker-BLAMMO at worst, what with the
>thing most THOROUGHLY not being made to accept New Widget X as a
>replacement. Less because it's a no-name, and more because Widget X
>gives the item 3000 Whatcha-ma-callit and it's VERY specifically not
>rated for more that 1750....but Widget X FITS in there.

The thing is, that's my own damn fault and I can own the fuckup.

Like, I'll happily void my warranty and render my own stuff nonfunctional using unsanctioned parts. I'm less happy if a device is explicitly built to detect unsanctioned parts and ceases to function if they're used. Like when Keurig was talking about making its coffeemakers detect, and reject, non-Keurig branded coffee pods.

Hell, we're getting to the point where devices are rejecting sanctioned, first-party parts if you don't pony up cash back to the original seller. Farmers in the midwest are resorting to the Ukrainian hackers to jailbreak their John Deere tractors because in order to swap a part out, a Genuine John Deere Technician(tm) has to plug in a dongle and tell the tractor to accept the thing, a process whose only purpose is to transfer money from the farmer to John Deere.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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JFerio
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Apr-22-17, 00:10 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #9
 
   >Like, I'll happily void my warranty and render my own stuff
>nonfunctional using unsanctioned parts. I'm less happy if a device is
>explicitly built to detect unsanctioned parts and ceases to function
>if they're used. Like when Keurig was talking about making its
>coffeemakers detect, and reject, non-Keurig branded coffee pods.

You know, we had one of those damned things at work. The absolutely hilarious thing? We went through two of them in six months, where the third party predecessor had lasted years. When they gave up? In came a new copy of the predecessor, and it's outlasted both of the first party ones.

Oh, and as near as I can tell, the attempt to bolt on Digital Restriction Management was pretty much an abject favor. If they're still saying "it's for your own good," it's become kind of an under-breath murmur that you really don't hear anymore.

>
>Hell, we're getting to the point where devices are rejecting
>sanctioned, first-party parts if you don't pony up cash back to the
>original seller. Farmers in the midwest are resorting to the Ukrainian
>hackers to jailbreak their John Deere tractors because in order to
>swap a part out, a Genuine John Deere Technician(tm) has to plug in a
>dongle and tell the tractor to accept the thing, a process whose only
>purpose is to transfer money from the farmer to John Deere.

This has started to be a problem. I think in part because it's become cheap enough to actually attempt to do as an effort to force you to have to pay them money when it needs repair, even if someone else does the heavy lifting for cheaper than their repair bay.

I'm going to have to do much more research when it comes time to replace appliances and lawn equipment, because it's more and more likely that we're going to start running into this sort of thing for at least the big-ticket purchases. And it's also another reason to stay the Fucking Hell Away from anything that's jumping on the Internet of Things bandwagon (where they can tell you've installed a replacement part and can automatically dispatch the guy with the dongle before you even realize that the device won't work until he arrives). No thanks, I'm perfectly happy with my fridge just beeping annoyingly when it's left open, versus sending me emails and texts to complain.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
902 posts
Apr-22-17, 02:51 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #10
 
   > And it's also another reason to
>stay the Fucking Hell Away from anything that's jumping on the
>Internet of Things bandwagon (where they can tell you've installed a
>replacement part and can automatically dispatch the guy with the
>dongle before you even realize that the device won't work until he
>arrives). No thanks, I'm perfectly happy with my fridge just beeping
>annoyingly when it's left open, versus sending me emails and texts to
>complain.

You know, I have no specific problem with the basic concept of the Internet of Things or smart devices. I wouldn't pay a premium for it but I wouldn't necessarily mind a fridge that tells me "don't drink that milk, buddy, you'll regret it" or "my ice maker is about to fail catastrophically" or even something more outre like "someone opened me four times while you were at work. Do you have kids? I hope you have kids. Or smart pets. Otherwise some creepy shit is going on."

But the thing is, the fridge would need to tell me that. I own the fridge. I am the fridgemaster! It reports to me and only to me. Not to its manufacturers. Not to whatever firm the manufacturers outsourced the service to. Me.

Most IoC stuff seems to want to report to a central server. I'm not enough of a wirehead to know the extent to which this is necessary (in that it isn't possible or economical to make every single device a completely standalone unit) or to what extent it isn't and they just want all my data for themselves.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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JFerio
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Apr-22-17, 09:36 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #11
 
   >> And it's also another reason to
>>stay the Fucking Hell Away from anything that's jumping on the
>>Internet of Things bandwagon (where they can tell you've installed a
>>replacement part and can automatically dispatch the guy with the
>>dongle before you even realize that the device won't work until he
>>arrives). No thanks, I'm perfectly happy with my fridge just beeping
>>annoyingly when it's left open, versus sending me emails and texts to
>>complain.
>
>You know, I have no specific problem with the basic concept of the
>Internet of Things or smart devices. I wouldn't pay a premium for it
>but I wouldn't necessarily mind a fridge that tells me "don't drink
>that milk, buddy, you'll regret it" or "my ice maker is about to fail
>catastrophically" or even something more outre like "someone opened me
>four times while you were at work. Do you have kids? I hope you have
>kids. Or smart pets. Otherwise some creepy shit is going on."
>
>But the thing is, the fridge would need to tell me that. I own
>the fridge. I am the fridgemaster! It reports to me and only to me.
>Not to its manufacturers. Not to whatever firm the manufacturers
>outsourced the service to. Me.
>
>Most IoC stuff seems to want to report to a central server. I'm not
>enough of a wirehead to know the extent to which this is necessary (in
>that it isn't possible or economical to make every single device a
>completely standalone unit) or to what extent it isn't and they just
>want all my data for themselves.

Most of it is ease and cost - it's easier to make it happen with a central server versus setting it up to make it easy to do it standalone. Plus the date. Plus there seems to be an increasing flirtation with the idea of additional "forcing obsolescence" with software already - look at the past 5-10 years of trying to bolt on online requirements for video games that don't need to have it. And we've already had at least 3 public shutdowns of servers involved in IOT that has effectively bricked devices, starting with the thermostat company that Google bought.

Incidentally, I'd love for my fridge to be able to tell me if I've left something in it too long, the problem is that even what I know about the current state of Fridge IOT is that they actually don't really do that, at least not without a hell of a lot of help that would be better handled with a whiteboard mounted next to the fridge where you keep track of when you put things in the fridge. And they come with central server requirements anyway, which is currently a non-starter in this house, even without the security problems that have been continually cropping up.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
745 posts
Apr-22-17, 05:33 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-17 AT 05:36 AM (EDT)
 
>The thing is, that's my own damn fault and I can own the fuckup.

Sure. You can. On the whole, considering the general level of the human race...what do you think the statistics say about people like you versus them others?


>Like, I'll happily void my warranty and render my own stuff
>nonfunctional using unsanctioned parts. I'm less happy if a device is
>explicitly built to detect unsanctioned parts and ceases to function
>if they're used. Like when Keurig was talking about making its
>coffeemakers detect, and reject, non-Keurig branded coffee pods.

Which is, you know, annoying. But if the thing would potentially go very loudly BOOM, for instance, if you fuck with it, and SOMEONE would fuck with it, this is a certainty...then I can not only understand, but firmly agree with it bricking.


>Hell, we're getting to the point where devices are rejecting
>sanctioned, first-party parts if you don't pony up cash back to the
>original seller. Farmers in the midwest are resorting to the Ukrainian
>hackers to jailbreak their John Deere tractors because in order to
>swap a part out, a Genuine John Deere Technician(tm) has to plug in a
>dongle and tell the tractor to accept the thing, a process whose only
>purpose is to transfer money from the farmer to John Deere.

Which, in a way, does fall under the above. A tractor is the sort of thing that can cause severe injury. You think SOMEONE wouldn't sue John Deere if they fucked around with it on their own, got it wrong, and harmed themselves? This isn't the Information Age or the Modern Age or any of that. It's the Litigation Age. THAT is the purpose.

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
902 posts
Apr-22-17, 12:03 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #12
 
   >You think SOMEONE wouldn't sue
>John Deere if they fucked around with it on their own, got it wrong,
>and harmed themselves?

I dunno. Do mechanics sue Ford or GM if they don't disconnect the battery before working on the electrical system and fry themselves? And if so, are those suits taken seriously or are they laughed out of court?

-Merc
Keep Rat


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JFerio
Charter Member
190 posts
Apr-22-17, 02:04 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #15
 
   >>You think SOMEONE wouldn't sue
>>John Deere if they fucked around with it on their own, got it wrong,
>>and harmed themselves?
>
>I dunno. Do mechanics sue Ford or GM if they don't disconnect the
>battery before working on the electrical system and fry themselves?
>And if so, are those suits taken seriously or are they laughed out of
>court?

I've gotten the impression that what Deere has done doesn't keep you from replacing parts; it forces you to pay for someone to go out and authorize the replacement for the tractor. I expect that the idea is the cost of doing so, and the inconvenience, is intended to make it so it's not worth doing any sort of third party repair. And while I expect that the "authorized repair is safer" is part of how they're trying to legally sell it, it's ultimately just about the money.





Jeffrey 'JFerio' Crouch
'It'll be all right... I think.' - Nene Romanova



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MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
244 posts
Apr-24-17, 01:56 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #16
 
   Cost and time both - which is of critical importance to farmers because, y'know, if the tractor breaks down as you're trying to get the harvest in before a storm front shows up and ruins the crop in the field, there's a -little- bit of time pressure and waiting for a Deere mechanic ain't exactly an option in those cases.

Ultimately, though, the whole situation's basically Deere trying to exert post-purchase suzerainty over the farmer's equipment, so they can continue to extract money from the farmer even after they've paid for the tractor.

This applies to a lot of things these days, as vendors are realizing that if they tie essential functions of equipment to "the cloud" that they force the consumers to keep interacting with them - at least providing opportunities to sell "upgrades"; at worst to induce artificially shortened lifespans on the products to force more money out of 'em.

--
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome
decree,
Where Alph, the sacred river,
ran
Through caverns measureless to
man
Down to a sunless sea


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StClair
Charter Member
699 posts
Apr-25-17, 07:46 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #12
 
   >>The thing is, that's my own damn fault and I can own the fuckup.
>
>Sure. You can. On the whole, considering the general level of the
>human race...what do you think the statistics say about people like
>you versus them others?

More to the point, there's always That Guy. You know the one. The one on the wrong side of Dunning-Kruger, who thinks he's much more competent than he actually is.
And the uncomfortable truth is, that guy could be you.


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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
745 posts
Apr-25-17, 03:45 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #26
 
   Exactly this. And That Guy, even if it isn't you, is far more common that one would hope and think.

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19264 posts
Apr-25-17, 03:57 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #26
 
   >And the uncomfortable truth is, that guy could be you.

It's like how whenever the AAA does surveys, everyone they ask says yeah, I'm an above-average driver, which is mathematically impossible.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
902 posts
Apr-26-17, 01:24 AM (EST)
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29. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #28
 
   >>And the uncomfortable truth is, that guy could be you.
>
>It's like how whenever the AAA does surveys, everyone they ask says
>yeah, I'm an above-average driver, which is mathematically impossible.

To be fair, the kind of person who responds to a survey from AAA might self-select above-average drivers.

I am currently doing tech support for a polling, survey, and analysis company. Self-selection is something that has a number of people who are far, far smarter than I am tearing their hair out. You don't get into statistical and quantitative analysis if you're not the sort of math nerd deeply interested in getting accurate results from your data (even banksters are interested in that) but actually getting your hands on that sweet, sweet data is super hard.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19264 posts
Apr-26-17, 01:36 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #29
 
   >actually getting your
>hands on that sweet, sweet data is super hard.

That's why I don't put any credence in election-season polls—whenever I'm not hanging up on those people I'm lying to them for the sheer sport of it, and I can't be the only one.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
902 posts
Apr-26-17, 08:49 AM (EST)
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31. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #30
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-17 AT 08:50 AM (EDT)
 
>>actually getting your
>>hands on that sweet, sweet data is super hard.
>
>That's why I don't put any credence in election-season
>polls—whenever I'm not hanging up on those people I'm lying to
>them for the sheer sport of it, and I can't be the only one.

Oddly enough, presidential election polling (specifically that, with a "sometimes Senate races" asterisk) is considered the gold standard within the industry, and is looked upon enviously by everyone else.

This isn't to say there have not been polling failures in that regard. There have been. But for the past three or four decades presidential election polling has almost always gotten within the margin of error, and if you can do that reliably in statistics (and your confidence interval isn't something utterly ridiculous like 30%) you're basically considered a walking god.

But the reason for that is real simple: resources. Presidential election polling has enormous resources behind it, and when you have effectively unlimited money you can brute-force your sample sizes to be robust enough to survive just about anything that is thrown at them. That's the reason for the "Senate race" asterisk; high-dollar Senate races in certain states can also haul in enough resources to get very accurate.

This provokes some white-hot envy in people who don't command those kinds of resources but are expected by their clients to produce the kind of results those resources command. They're like "why can't you get me the sort of charts I see John King and Wolf Blitzer standing next to" and its like "because you didn't back a dump truck full of money up to our loading dock, jackhole, you picked our cheapest package in order to find out what people think of your barbeque sauce. It isn't useless or shoddy, but it is weaker than it would otherwise be. Jesus Christ, I have a double masters in Math and Sociology, I don't need this. You think I don't want to be waving my arms at holograms on national TV? I would love to be doing that!"

This is without even getting into the people who don't want accurate, they want the company name put to a survey report that matches their agenda so they can claim independent authority. We get that a lot. My impression is that some parts of the company comply with that request more than they should. But that's another rant.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Star Ranger4
Charter Member
2208 posts
May-03-17, 02:39 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #31
 
   >This is without even getting into the people who don't want accurate,
>they want the company name put to a survey report that matches their
>agenda so they can claim independent authority. We get that a lot. My
>impression is that some parts of the company comply with that
>request more than they should. But that's another rant.
>

And sadly, Merc, is the proof of the old wheeze about Liars, Damn Liars and Statisticians.


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19264 posts
Apr-22-17, 04:54 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-17 AT 05:09 PM (EDT)
 
It's legal for an aerospaceline to overbook a flight. However, it is also legal for passengers bumped off flights by this loathsome practice to set fire to the departure lounge.

--G.
This one isn't true.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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CdrMike
Member since Feb-20-05
715 posts
Apr-22-17, 04:59 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #17
 
   "The white zone is for the loading and unloading of explosive ordinance only."

--------------------------
CdrMike, Overwatch Reject

"You know, the world could always use more heroes." - Tracer, Overwatch


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McFortner
Charter Member
449 posts
Apr-22-17, 05:37 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #18
 
   >"The white zone is for the loading and unloading of explosive
>ordinance only."

"No, the RED zone is for loading and unloading of explosive ordinance only. The WHITE zone is for loading and unloading of biological weapons."

(With apologies to ZAZ)

Michael

Michael C. Fortner
"Maxim 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".


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Croaker
Charter Member
541 posts
May-01-17, 12:11 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #19
 
   "The BLUE zone is for loading and unloading of passengers who require special seating arrangements, such as Cybertronians, Hutts, Hoffmanites, and Skarosians."

--
Croaker
RCW #mc2
"When in doubt, shoot something. Preferably the enemy."


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VoidRandom
Member since Dec-9-02
147 posts
Apr-23-17, 01:05 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #0
 
   >Violating this statute does not
>incur jail time, but there is a fine and you will get a nasty, nasty
>note from the Bureau of Standards.

And if this rule is violated and something gets hurt, triple damages?

-VR
The return of the Robertson screw head!
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19264 posts
Apr-23-17, 01:18 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #20
 
   >>Violating this statute does not
>>incur jail time, but there is a fine and you will get a nasty, nasty
>>note from the Bureau of Standards.
>
>And if this rule is violated and something gets hurt, triple damages?

I'm having a hard time envisioning a situation in which the use of a slotted screw instead of a Philips or Torx one would actually result in an injury...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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NHO
Member since Oct-5-16
49 posts
Apr-23-17, 02:42 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #21
 
   >I'm having a hard time envisioning a situation in which the use of a
>slotted screw instead of a Philips or Torx one would actually result
>in an injury...

Have you ever got cut by a flat head screwdriver that slipped and right in the hand you are steadying youself while applying pressure by other one? Nasty.


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
1187 posts
Apr-23-17, 12:43 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #21
 
  
>I'm having a hard time envisioning a situation in which the use of a
>slotted screw instead of a Philips or Torx one would actually result
>in an injury...

Scraped knuckles from the driver slipping while turning in cramped quarters?

Mario


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rwpikul
Member since Jun-22-03
178 posts
Apr-23-17, 09:40 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Things You Didn't Know About ZC, cont'd"
In response to message #21
 
   >>>Violating this statute does not
>>>incur jail time, but there is a fine and you will get a nasty, nasty
>>>note from the Bureau of Standards.
>>
>>And if this rule is violated and something gets hurt, triple damages?
>
>I'm having a hard time envisioning a situation in which the use of a
>slotted screw instead of a Philips or Torx one would actually result
>in an injury...

The entire reason the Robertson screwdriver<1> was invented was because a screwdriver salesman, (named Robertson), had a flat-head screwdriver slip on him and seriously injure his hand. Although, it wouldn't surprise me to see a similar injury from a Philips spiralling out of a stuck screw<2>.


<1> What everyone should be using rather than Philips, except that Robertson wouldn't agree to let Ford licence production rights.

<2> Generally the less bad thing that happens when a Philips screw gets stuck. The more bad being that it destroys the head in a way that you can no longer get a grip on it.

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)


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