(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation & Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons his asbestos suit.)

Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular -- right?).

Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo- and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become *fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that way, as they are wont to do?

No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2) Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the thought that counts.

<uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially -- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during. (I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out. Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

>...or perhaps not so crypto.

Ah, right. You're the guy who reads too much into everything.

>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time?

Ummmmmmmmmm... well... three of the characters you mention brought it with them as part of their canonical design...

(You know, it's funny... ever since I started plotting this series and realized the distribution of sexual preferences, I knew it would be only a matter of time before the first "D00D, what's with all the lesbians?!" post. I didn't expect it to be couched in pseudo-critical gobbledegook about "crypto-(foo) subtext" though. Shows you I should learn to expect more from my readers. :)

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18.

... And? In my home state, the age of consent is 14. Or it was when I was of an age to give a damn about it, anyway.

>I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.

Yeah? Then how about looking at the conditions under which most (if not all) of the sexual relationships in SOS are occurring. Look at the respect and trust that exist between the partners. Look at the care that's taken to avoid hurting people. Look at, in short, the maturity of the characters involved, rather than an arbitrary, artificial, useless guideline like calendar age.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.

Then piss off! For Christ's sake, I didn't hold you down and force you to read it, Bucky. Sexuality is an important part of life, and to omit "anything describing before, after, and... during [sexual activity]" is to leave out a major component of what makes these people who and what they are. I'm not saying they're defined entirely by their sex lives, any more than they're defined entirely by what subjects they study or what hobbies they have - but it's as important as either of those.

If it bothers you that much, then you're in the wrong aisle. Don't complain to me, because I don't intend to change the way I do things in order to accommodate your puritanical squeamishness.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Erm... crypto? Subtext?

No, it's not hidden. And it's not subtext -- it's right out in the open. Sheesh.

>Kaitlyn and Juri.

Juri's an established lesbian in the source material. I've only seen the movie and I know this. (In the movie Shiori seems to reciprocate, unless I'm reading it wrong.) Kaitlyn is an established bisexual who hasn't met very many men lately who have rung her bells. The last one who came close annihilated her trust and deserves to be fed to the Sarlacc. (Not that I want to have one more word concerning M*ke C*rp*nt*r ever to appear in another Eyrie story.)

> Utena and Anthy.

A canonical relationship. Also, Utena is straight, except for Anthy.

> Amanda and her bodyguard.

This has more to do with the Dessler-Dragonaar thing than the gender thing. It's made pretty clear that all pairs concerned tend to be intimate, and Gamilons have a completely different set of sexual mores anyway.

> Azalynn and Liza.

With all due respect to Azalynn, she falls into the "if it's got two legs then it's fair game" philosophy (with the consensual rider, of course). As for Liza... well, spend some time with daughters of rich families. Her behavior is downright <i>chaste</i> compared to some of what I've heard about.

> The Centauri guy.

He's not a lesbian.

> And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).

The purpose of that has more to do with establishing the differences between Cephiro and modern Midgard human culture in regards to sexual mores.

>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just...

You're not making a good case for this.

> (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time?

Theme? No, I think emerging sexuality and the importance of love in all its forms in general are the themes. Devlin is, erm, trio'ed up with Rina and Amanda; Kaitlyn and Utena both have their respective... traumas to deal with; Corwin is learning about the emotional half of it, etc. Miki and Dorothy are a heterosexual couple. So are Wakaba and Saionji (and I suspect their sex life is rather conventional, honestly).

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot.

...Your point?

> --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.

Well, as soon as I start piloting mecha and making FTL hops to neighboring star systems, I'll be sure to look to space opera fanfiction for an example of sexual mores. Christ.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.

Then don't read it. Simple as that.

-- Sean --
Rabid Crack Weasel #42
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18.

Please explain how 17 is well under the age of 18? As of C+C, Kate is 17, and I don't think anyone else who's currently being sexually active is under the age of 16, though I might be mistaken about that fact. The only spot I think I might be wrong would be with Miki.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

Errr, Hopelessly Lost isn't Undocumented Features. Apples and oranges, even if it is SI. Different Character set.

Also, have you ever seen any of Revolutionary Girl Utena? I've only seen the movie, and read some synopsis stuff on the web, and I know that it's steeped in sexual subtext, some hidden, some quite blatent. To have ignored it completely would have made the RGU characters no longer the characters that Gryphon wanted to work with. Personally, I think he's done a stellar job in keeping it relatively clean while holding them all up to the characters they are, which is one of the reasons I'm so addicted to the fiction on this site.

You're not really voicing criticism here, you voicing personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but I think you're confusing the two. If you don't like that kind of thing, why are you reading it? For it not to be there would be a travesty, in my personal opinion. And also in my opinion, what happened between Juri and Kate at the end of C+C was in it's way a bigger payoff than anyone else in the story got that day--saying a lot given the events at hand--for the simple reason that they both so richly deserved the comfort and love of each other after the road they've been on to that point.

---------------------------------

Chad Collier Digital Bitch J. Random VFX Company And please, dear goddess, don't read NXE.

---------------------------------

Oh, by the way, I left this out of my original post, since I was busy taking your pseudo-intellectual pontification more seriously than it really deserved, but:

Masamune Shirow, in the "liner notes" to his first color artwork collection, Intron Depot, explained the deleted pages from Ghost in the Shell by saying, "I made it an all-girl orgy because I didn't want to draw some guy's butt."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too.

The fuck, man? Are you that easily squicked? I mean, it's not like the entire sequence of events was described in minute detail, in either situation. I mean, we're talking three or four paragraphs at most, no explicit description, no kiny scenarios, (at least none we're privy to -- further this respondent sayeth not ;) not even any blue language. I'm under the impression that we're all adults (or incredible simulations thereof) here, and this is PG-13 stuff at best. NYPD Blue is racier any given week.

And how, exactly, does putting the sex scenes between the episodes make things better? That doesn't make any sense at all: "Something happens, but you don't get to know what, because it's naughty." Right. Fine. We must protect the children, because you've got a hair up your ass.

Ah, the hell with it. If you can't handle mature entertainment, you're free to wander off to disney.com or whatever.

Mr. Fnord, Rabid Crack Weasel #23
--
"I JUST BLEW THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS ON AN IDIOTIC FILM ABOUT CLOWN COPS!!! WHY DIDN'T ANY OF YOU STOP ME?!?"
-Bob the Angry Flower

and utterly missed the relationship between Amanda and Garon being in the grand tradition of all dotty, inbred ruling families.

C'mon. If you're going to insist that your personal morality is valid for everyone, at least make a token stop at what my anthropology prof used to claim was the Universal Human Taboo Barring Exceptional Situations. Sheesh.

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Sacramento, CA

Most of this has been covered already, by various people, but I couldn't resist the urge to point out one thing that hasn't been commented on yet. You're unhappy with the fact that the kids are having sex out of wedlock? Good freaking lord man, Corwin's parents aren't married. The family relationships around there are so complex you need a flippin' scorecard to tell which children belong to what set of parents, but you've got an issue with the fact that Kaitlyn and Juri, etc. aren't married? If you're looking for fic to set an example, I don't think EPU is going to set the kind of example you're expecting, and rightly so in my opinion.

Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Thorne, if we felt like writing messages, we'd write messages.

We write -stories.- Take 'em or leave 'em.

Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let you know)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

If you're going to quote Uncle, dammit, do it right. You can't just use one "One more thing and expect it to be funny...

One more thing... You complain about all the underage characters having the sex as it were. Would you prefer if Gryphon (300+) was getting it on with Utena and Anthy? Sure, that'd be nasty, but at least there would be a guy in the relationship to balance it out and add maturity.

One more thing... I thought the way that the Kate and Juri scene at the end was handled rather well. Between scenes or between stories, it's all between the lines. Quit complaining.

One more thing... That's how you do an Uncle impersonation.

Static-Pulse
I can stand blue-balled bigots, but not when they invoke Uncle like that.
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

Either go read Bubblegum Pink or get yourself a date. Jeez.

drakensisthered

"I hate my life." - Londo Mollari
"So do I." - G'Kar
"Shut up!" - Londo Mollari

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.
>
OK, obviously you have lived a very sheltered life and never hung out with people your own age (assuming you're over the age of 12). Sex is a part of life. Not only that, but sex is a much greater part of childrens' lives than any American adult is willing to admit. You realize that this is one of the few contries out there that considers sex to be a taboo subject, right? Most of the rest of the world laughs at American "sex scandals". (The best example I know of is the Monica Lewinski affair - IIRC, at least one foreign official said that in their country if the head of state wasn't having at least one affair, the people would worry about him!)

Kids have sex. Period. Unfortunately it's people like you who don't believe in talking about it that are causing the real problems. Imagine a world where kids could feel free to talk about sex, ask questions about sex, and get help in dealing with sex. You know what would happen? Teen pregnancy rates would plumment. Kids who are having to deal with situations like Date Rape by hiding it would be less likely to suffer in silence, assuming they weren't able to prevent the rape in the first place. Teenagers would have one less thing to stress over than they already have just for being teenagers.

Yes, you've hit one of my buttons - deal. Just remember when it comes time for you to fumblingly talk to your kids about sex - the biggest cause of your discomfort is the fact that your parents weren't comfortable talking to you, and sex wasn't something you could talk about openly. Then see how you feel...

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.
>
Um... Gryphon has never been explicit during sex scenes, and yet he's also treated them as an important part of the story (see above about life). The fact that he's not afraid to write about the emotional impact of characters sexual relationships just proves he's a lot more open-minded about sex than you are - in spite of his self-professed Puritanical background. If you don't want to read it, don't read it - just don't ask for help understanding things that you skipped. Over the years I've learned one thing about Gryphon's evolved writing style - if he writes it, he thinks it's important, and therefore I should probably read it if I want to know whats going on.

My suggestion is that you get some open-minded friends (at least on the issue of sex), hang out with them for a while, and hope your mind gets opened up a bit more. There's a lot of things out there that I personally have no desire to get involved with, but it doesn't mean I'm not willing to think about them in proper context.

Offsides

It says a lot about this country that Sex is considered taboo, while murder and death gets regular coverage on the evening news.
-- Me
#include <sex.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>

Definitely no Cryptic unless your an Idiot. But that is what makes
the stories so much more robust and real.

>
>(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this
>juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation &
>Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons
>his asbestos suit.)

I certainly hope this was done for the sake of a 'Devil's Advocate'
type of role and not really trying to force your personal moral stance
on a story that sets its OWN moral stance that may or may not reflect
the author’s personal views. The story represents the Character's
views and that of the universe(s) they live in.

>
>Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn
>and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).

Kaitlyn & Juri: Look what happened to Kaitlyn when she was so young
(both years and emotionally). She may change, she might not. But
either way She loves Juri. I do not know anything about Juri.
Utena & Anthy: See RGU & SOS:S2M7 for explanations IT IS 100% CLEAR.
The only "Homosexual" relationship I do not fully understand is the
Liza & Azalynn one. I did not understand the motivation completely,
but I do not have anything against it. (I was hoping Mac & Liza would
get together:)

>
>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?

Well it certainly seems that you are narrow minded by the end of your
post. I do not think the EPU writers were actively trying to write
the characters any particular way. They have evolved into what you
see in SOS:S2M7.

>
>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

(Entering Literary Evaluation Mode)
The characters are emotionally more mature than most 30+ adults.
SOS does set an excellent example of how a family should care about
thier children. The stories depict what true friendship and loyalty
should be like. They also teach tolerance and understanding instead
or fear, bigotry and hatred. The stories show true love & compassion
at it's best. All of these are important aspects that are missing in
most of modern America. I do not believe Gryphon & EPU ever set out
to write a morality play or social commentary when they started SOS,
but they have made a good example. And in my opinion, because EPU
did not start out to preach ANYTHING with SOS, but they the stories
themselves developed these themes on their own makes it that much
better of a story and a very well written work of art.
(Exiting Literary Evaluation Mode)

>
><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.
>
>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

Your Idiosyncrasy:
What do you watch on TV or at the Movies? They have much more
explicit before, during, & after scenes/information, etc than ANYTHING
I have read from EPU. EPU has had the MOST Tastefully written Sexual
relations I have EVER seen. They treat sex and the characters with
respect and care. They so far have only given enough detail to evoke
the image and do not go into gratuitous, unnecessary detail of the
encounters. This is something that few writers seem to have any more.

As a Side note: Gryphon & EPU crew Thank you very much for the stories
you have given to us. I have enjoyed watching the characters, writers,
and stories evolve from the original UF to SOS. You have a lot of
courage to put something so personal as your stories in a public forum.
Thank you and I look forward to your future works.
The Phantom

Oh well , there's a light at the end of every tunnel I guess .
In this case it was the EPU Forum Express (where the rabid crack weasels and rabbits roam , yeah).

-Griever
Keep in mind , I'm not saying that there should be _more_ messages of the sort . I just enjoy seeing them shot down ^^

PS. And I still crack when I think about Beld being lesbian .

>...or perhaps not so crypto.

Not sure I understand what he means by 'crypto', but I think that has been covered.

>(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this
>juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation &
>Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons
>his asbestos suit.)

Um... why? Why would you deliberately take such a stance? Did you think the story was getting too good a review and you had to come up with extreme criticism to balance it?

>Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn
>and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).
>
>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?

Actually, to be honest, it was never a 'fashion'. The Avatar characters of UF began their star-spanning adventures as non-conformist college students. Having read UF-1 recently, that point is made. From what I read there, and what I inferred from that and the authors notes, they were the (please pardon my labeling) oddballs. Anyone who was unconventional in some way ended up hanging with them. They embraced the uniqueness. (stopping before getting preachy here about a place I never visited or have seen. Sorry Gryph.)

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Well, friend, as some others have said, EPU DOES set an example. Tolerance. Loyalty. Imagination. Hope. Courage. The desire to keep fun alive in a world that seems to abound with people and situations that want to snuff it out.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

No apparently about it. Question, WHAT exactly did you see written there? Did you see anything described in excruciatingly explicit detail? Did you see more than a few paragraphs that gave no doubt what was happening but left the exact details to your own imagination? I remember seeing the latter. I remember seeing a situation with people who knew what they were doing, did not coerce each other, but were sharing themselves with the one they love. I see nothing wrong at all.

>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

Well, here is my reaction. I am in the Navy, so of course I have heard most of the homosexual smart-ass remarks before (1200 sailors go out, 600 couples come back, and so forth). I have learned a few things in my career and this has stuck with me for the lastfew years: I don't care what you think about politics, religion or relationships. As long as it does not affect your ability to work, how you deal with others in the work place, and how others deal with you, I do not care if you are straight Republican Christian or any other combination of labels. I have no room for them, nor for intolerance like I read above.

Sh*t, I seem to be getting off on a rant. My major thing is this: I like Eyrie. I like what they write. I like that for a brief time I am placed in a world that has good people doing good things and actually wanting to be nice to each other. Given the option, I would move there in a heartbeat. Gryph, Zoner, Truss and all of you, I thank you for making this sailor's life less dreary, and giving me wonderful dreams of a world I would like to see, even if itwould be a serious copyright infringement.

Keep dreaming. I still do.

Archr
The Damned Sagittarius

"If you are going to have delusions, why not go for the really satisfying ones?" -Marcus Cole

Pretty Please With Sugar On Top.

Brad.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....

Oh dear, I haven't been this amused by homophobic posturing in a good long while. I think this thread is being taken -much- too seriously.

Oh my.

<wipes tears from her eyes, continues to giggle about the whole thing>

Even if it wasn't written tongue-in-cheek, I choose to take it so. Dear Goddess, that's funny. Crypto-Lesbian subtext. Heeheeheeheeheehee...

I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie Crypto-Lesbians!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah....

-- Juniper
Eyrie Productions Hot Crypto-Lesbian-on-Samurai-Chick Action HO!

You need more then Asbestos.

>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?

Uh, Wakaba and Saionji? Miki and Dorothy? Hell, Ben and Kei, Zoner and Yuri? A good deal of the characters are straight ya know. Hell, the only woman Utena loves is Anthy (She loves the person, not the body).

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)

Actually, the whole post is.

>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Why? They all practise safe sex and actually care for one another. I don't have a problem with it. No one else seems to have a problem with it. In fact, from what I've seen on the Forum, the only person objecting to this is <u>you</U>!

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

First, HL isn't part of UF. And did Ben describe it in graphic detail? No. He mentioned it (Although the statement 'I guess I've found another circumstance under which I don't stutter' broke me) in a short bit at the end of the movement. After what Carpenter did to her several years ago, Kate's had an understandable fear of crossing that boundary. This was a very important development for Kate, something that couldn't just be dumped 'between stories' as you want.

If you don't like the way the Symphony is going, then you don't have to read it. No one is forcing you to. The way these people love is part of their characters. If you want bland emotionless characters, go watch Dragon Ball.

Sweet Skuld, this sort of homophobic bullshit really pisses me off....

Matrix Dragon
"You will know pain... and you will know fear... and then, at long last, you will finish dying."
- Anthy Himemiya, Tower Shrouded in Frost

>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

You're welcome to your bias of course, but I have to refute something. Kate and Juri in particular are -spectacular- role models for a young relationship. Despite having all the opportunity and approval to engage in carnal relations at any time, they wait through a good portion of a year, until a time comes where they -know- that the action is an expression of their feelings for one another before they consumate their relationship. If I were to ever have children (unlikely as my wife and I are both in favor of zero population growth... although we may adopt some day), I can only hope that they would be capable of such restraint in their sexuality.

Apologies for increasing the size of this bloated thread.

-----------------------------------
Chris can't handle subjective morality

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/