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Subject: "And then another day (one day, continued)"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences Symphony of the Sword / The Order of the Rose Topic #445
Reading Topic #445
laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
428 posts
Aug-06-14, 09:54 AM (EST)
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"And then another day (one day, continued)"
 
   Out of respect for forum glitches, spawning a new thread.

<snip prior discussion of Corwin/Utena/Anthy>

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree there. I mean, sure, I'm not getting the inside view of your Utena's head, but from where I sit, as the reader, it just doesn't feel natural or organic.

Another part of it is that... well, after <link:www.eyrie-productions.com/UF/FI/SOS/bancroft-tower-1.txt|she explains how she's already in love with someone else>, that should've been the end of it. Instead, what comes after reminds me, in a very uncomfortable way, of the implicit, toxic belief held by certain groups of people, usually young, geeky males, about certain other people, usually women, to whom they have a one-sided romantic and/or sexual attraction. (I'll use the genders appropriate to the "usual" examples denoted above from here.) The belief is that, to the woman, the man is a friend (often expressed in such terms as "just a friend" or "friend zone" which carry the implicit assumption that anything other than a romantic and/or sexual relationship with her is, ultimately, an inherently lesser and unworthy thing), but if the man continues spending time with her as her friend, he'll eventually have turned in enough friendship tokens that she'll suddenly see what a wonderful man he is and become thoroughly besotted.

In the real world, a man being a woman's friend with the unspoken (possibly unconscious) condition that it's only because he's waiting for her to become his girlfriend? It's just creepy and fucked-up, and dishonest to boot.

One of the reasons that the whole Anthy/Corwin thing re: conceiving Utena and Anthy's first child bothers me is because this echoes the above to some extent, and it's also predicated upon the belief that a child conceived through heterosexual PIV sex is somehow more worthy, more real, than one conceived using medical technology.

>I gotta say that's pretty tragic-hipster of you. It's like the guy I
>knew at WPI who used to not only drop bands he liked if they Sold Out
>and Went Mainstream, but stop listening to their poorly produced indie
>EPs from before then, too.

Um, yeah, no. It's more that knowing where it's going to go makes reading it again feel a bit ... pointless? I'm not sure that's the right word. Symphony is far from the only media I don't reread (or other applicable re-consumption) for various reasons. In some cases, it's because I have rather fond memories of said media, but also remember enough to know that consuming it again now would be a bad idea, because I'd see so much more of the flaws than I did back in the day, and it'd taint those positive memories too. (That's far from the only reason, mind.)

>>From the context it's normally used it, I always
>>figured people thought I drowned puppies and pulled the wings off
>>pixies.
>
>I know, right? If I come across as defensive in my reply to that
>post, it may be because the jargon itself has become tantamount to an
>accusation these days. It's the 21st-century social discourse
>equivalent of questions like, "So when did you stop robbing liquor
>stores to pay for your heroin habit?"

Well, there is a small but highly-visible population who are noisily judgmental and seem to be more interested in showing off how much more socially aware they are than the next person on Tumblr or Twitter or whatever. They're not representative, however; they're mostly upper-middle-class straight white liberals who seem to prefer to assuage their liberal guilt with dominance displays (you know, showing off the neck frill, scratching the dirt with their claws, that kind of thing) rather than actually doing anything. The bulk of actual social progress comes from people who are in the trenches in DC and elsewhere doing things like getting arrested for the "We Do" campaign.

As for the term "cisgender": the people who object most vehemently to the existence of the term tend to be pretty terrible people. It's a neutral descriptor, in and of itself; the purpose in creating it is so that, rather than having "transgender" and "normal," implying that trans people are abnormal (in a negative sense), we have "transgender" and "cisgender."

>My only beef with "heteronormative" as a word (and several other
>gender-politics terms) is that it violates the expectation that
>prefixes and root words have consistent meaning: in the rest of the
>English language, "hetero-" means "differing" and "normative" means
>"of, pertaining to, or attempting to establish a norm or standard", so
>by rights "heteronormative" aught to mean "of, pertaining to,
>or attempting to establish a differing norm or standard". But of
>course it doesn't.

This reminds me of people who object to polyamory.

Not the practice, the word.

Because it mixes Greek (poly-) and Latin (-amory) roots. It should (they say, tongue firmly planted in cheek) be polyeros or multiamory.

In any event "heteronormative" shares similar logic in its derivation as homophobia, transphobia, cissexism, transmisogyny, and other terms we've had to create, where the omitted components are understood. Essentially, it means the viewpoint, explicit or implicit, that heterosexual relationships between cisgender people are the norm, the default, and that, should relationships not of that nature be permitted, they acknowledge and honor it in some fashion. Anthy's "child of love" bit is very heteronormative, the many triads that start off as a lesbian couple and then add a guy, that Anthy refers to Utena as her husband (reflecting a heteronormative expectation of butch/femme pairings in lesbian relationship), that sort of thing.

>>Regardless, you're right in assuming that I have zero interest in
>>debating whether Utena's relationship of Corwin is intended as some
>>kind of authorial refutation of her bisexuality (NOTE: it isn't),
>>which is where context implies you were probably going with that.
>
>I don't think that's where Laudre was going, but then I may be blinded
>by the fact that it's pretty much impossible: Utena has both a husband
>and a wife. She's virtually the definition of "bisexual".

Utena, as portrayed in Symphony, seems to be closer to a 0 on the Kinsey scale, with Anthy as the one woman she's openly attracted to both sexually and romantically; in the source material, it's less clear -- it seems to be an "everyone is some degree of bi" sort of setting. (And, in many cases, also live by the adage "why go across the street when you can go across the hall?" But Revolutionary Girl Utena is ... well. It's certainly something.)


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
And then another day (one day, continued) [View All] laudre Aug-06-14 TOP
  RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-06-14 1
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) BobSchroeck Aug-06-14 2
         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-06-14 3
         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Nova Floresca Aug-06-14 4
             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) BobSchroeck Aug-07-14 10
                 RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Nova Floresca Aug-07-14 11
                 RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 14
                     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-08-14 15
                         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Offsides Aug-08-14 16
                             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 19
                         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) trboturtle2 Aug-08-14 17
                             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 20
                                 RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Terminus Est Aug-08-14 21
                                     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 26
                                         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) The Traitor Aug-13-14 41
                                 RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Droken Aug-08-14 22
                                     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 25
                                         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-08-14 31
                                             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Droken Aug-08-14 32
                                 RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-08-14 30
                     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Nova Floresca Aug-08-14 18
                     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Matrix Dragon Aug-08-14 23
                         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 27
                             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Matrix Dragon Aug-08-14 29
                                 RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Proginoskes Aug-10-14 36
                                     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-10-14 37
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) The Traitor Aug-06-14 5
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Mercutio Aug-13-14 38
         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-13-14 39
             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Mercutio Aug-13-14 40
  RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Proginoskes Aug-07-14 6
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-07-14 7
         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Proginoskes Aug-07-14 8
             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Gryphonadmin Aug-08-14 12
         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Dwaggy Aug-07-14 9
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-08-14 13
         RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Vorticity Aug-08-14 28
             RE: And then another day (one day, continued) laudre Aug-09-14 33
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Matrix Dragon Aug-08-14 24
  RE: And then another day (one day, continued) Peter Eng Aug-10-14 34
     RE: And then another day (one day, continued) drakensis Aug-10-14 35

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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-06-14, 10:27 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-14 AT 12:25 PM (EDT)
 
>I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

You say that as if there's room for some ambiguity here. This isn't a judgment call. I'm telling you that your assumptions about why that story arc went where it went are wrong. Full stop. You can insist that you aren't feeling it all you like, but that's on you.

(Christ, I think I finally know how Hideaki Anno feels. "Yoouuuu don't understand my aaaaarrrrrt!" :)

>Another part of it is that... well, after
>she explains how she's already in love with someone else, that should've
>been the end of it.

Oh, for - I just - is your life not a process? Because you seem to be operating under the expectation that Utena's, Corwin's, and everybody else's isn't going to be. It's very... pigeonholing. "This is your role. You will remain in it. There will be no adjustments."

There is a certain irony there.

(And, funnily enough, the process is still ongoing, and I'm getting shit about that too, albeit not specifically from you.)

>Instead, what comes after reminds me, in a very
>uncomfortable way, of the implicit, toxic belief held by certain
>groups of people, usually young, geeky males, about certain other
>people, usually women, to whom they have a one-sided romantic and/or
>sexual attraction.

Except that it was never one-sided, which Utena's own ruminations in the course of Bancroft Tower, to say nothing of various subsequent events (Monolith, anyone?) ought to have made pretty plain.

>The belief is that, to the woman,
>the man is a friend (often expressed in such terms as "just a friend"
>or "friend zone" which carry the implicit assumption that anything
>other than a romantic and/or sexual relationship with her is,
>ultimately, an inherently lesser and unworthy thing), but if the man
>continues spending time with her as her friend, he'll eventually have
>turned in enough friendship tokens that she'll suddenly see what a
>wonderful man he is and become thoroughly besotted.

Oh, horseshit. Drawing that conclusion from the evolution of Corwin-and-Utena is like saying that because my couch is covered in slightly wrinkly grey leather, it must be an elephant. You've failed to check your own baggage at the door there, plain and simple.

>One of the reasons that the whole Anthy/Corwin thing re: conceiving
>Utena and Anthy's first child bothers me is because this echoes the
>above to some extent, and it's also predicated upon the belief that a
>child conceived through heterosexual PIV sex is somehow more worthy,
>more real, than one conceived using medical technology.

I know I've been over this in another thread pretty recently, but:

A) She wasn't saying children born from medical intervention are, in and of themselves, Bad and Wrong, just that that kind of thing wasn't for her - she phrased it clumsily because she was under a lot of stress at the time; and

B) She might have been lying. She does that sometimes. ... Quite a lot, actually, when she's trying to accomplish something that she doesn't feel she has time or mental bandwidth to explain to the muggles.

I'm not going to get drawn into the "heteronormative" tar pit, except to note:

>that Anthy refers to Utena as her husband
>(reflecting a heteronormative expectation of butch/femme pairings in
>lesbian relationship), that sort of thing.

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on this one too. Utena is called Anthy's husband because she's a prince. That's part of the source material's gender politics baggage, not some kind of weird attempt at passive-aggressive activism on my part, I mean for fuck's sake.

The relationships in the Symphony stories, and indeed pretty much any story of mine that I can think of, have nothing to do with me having some kind of an agenda. They're driven by the characters and their circumstances. That's it! It's really that simple. Ironically, it would occasionally be way, way easier for me if it wasn't, because then I would just be able to make them do whatever's easiest for me to clean up after, which this obviously wasn't.

I'm trying to be patient and engaged here, I really am, but at this point it's fairly plain that my first instinct was right and I should just have stayed the hell away from this discussion. There are assumptions at work on your end that are so ludicrous as to be sort of tacitly insulting, and besides, the whole problem is that looking-for-meat-in-the-produce-aisle thing again. UF isn't some kind of exercise in metaphor-based social justice advocacy, it's fucking sci-fi-fantasy crossover fanfiction.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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BobSchroeck
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Aug-06-14, 01:10 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #1
 
   >I'm trying to be patient and engaged here, I really am, but at this
>point it's fairly plain that my first instinct was right and I should
>just have stayed the hell away from this discussion. There are
>assumptions at work on your end that are so ludicrous as to be sort of
>tacitly insulting, and besides, the whole problem is that
>looking-for-meat-in-the-produce-aisle thing again. UF isn't some kind
>of exercise in metaphor-based social justice advocacy, it's fucking
>sci-fi-fantasy crossover fanfiction.

It's "Death of the Author" in play, Gryph. The only person who's not allowed a say in what you meant with your work is you. Your opinion is invalid and irrelevant to the discussion -- only outsiders are allowed true insight into your purpose.

Bleagh.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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Gryphonadmin
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20001 posts
Aug-06-14, 01:16 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #2
 
   >It's "Death of the Author" in play, Gryph. The only person who's not
>allowed a say in what you meant with your work is you. Your
>opinion is invalid and irrelevant to the discussion -- only outsiders
>are allowed true insight into your purpose.
>
>Bleagh.

See, Traitor was asking me a while ago why capital-C Criticism gets on my tits so? This. This is why.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Nova Floresca
Member since Sep-13-13
360 posts
Aug-06-14, 05:17 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #2
 
   Wait, I was under the impression "Death of the Author" meant "don't dig through the author's personal life for things to use against the work".
"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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BobSchroeck
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Aug-07-14, 09:12 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #4
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-14 AT 09:13 AM (EDT)
 
>Wait, I was under the impression "Death of the Author" meant "don't
>dig through the author's personal life for things to use against the
>work".

At the risk of derailing this thread, I will briefly state that while that is part of "Death of the Author", it never was the only part of it. The original essay which named and explicated the concept argued against including the author's intentions into analysis of the work as well as his biographical details and context.

Of course, the original essay was raising a point about a kind of literary observer effect -- how do the critic's own biases affect his ability to accurately determine the author's intent from the work itself?, to briefly and somewhat imprecisely put it -- but far too many self-congratulatory hack critics have pretty much redefined it as "the foolish author has no idea what he's really doing, only we enlightened elite do".

Like I said, bleagh.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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Nova Floresca
Member since Sep-13-13
360 posts
Aug-07-14, 12:53 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #10
 
   >Like I said, bleagh.

I failed my literary criticism classes in college, and that's starting to look like a good thing.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
428 posts
Aug-08-14, 02:25 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #10
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 02:25 PM (EDT)
 
>At the risk of derailing this thread, I will briefly state that
>while that is part of "Death of the Author", it never was the
>only part of it. The original essay which named and explicated
>the concept argued against including the author's intentions
>into analysis of the work as well as his biographical details and
>context.

That's a part I tend to agree with.

>... ar too
>many self-congratulatory hack critics have pretty much redefined it as
>"the foolish author has no idea what he's really doing, only we
>enlightened elite do".

No argument here. The way I tend to approach it is that the final authority on the work is the work itself; authorial intent is informative but not definitive. There are good reasons for this; intending to communicate or portray one thing and ending up with something far more horrible happens quite a bit, and it bites especially hard when it's part of a larger cultural trend.

The above examples are rather extreme, but they're there to establish why "death of the author" is a thing. It means that, although Zack Snyder was trying to create a female empowerment fantasy and also make geek males feel guilty for male gaze and reduction of women to eye candy, what came out was a misogynistic, exploitative mess that commits the same sins Snyder said he was trying to skewer.

All of which rounds back to why the Corwin/Utena relationship (and the Corwin/Utena/Anthy triad) ultimately killed my ability to enjoy Symphony of the Sword. I get that Gryphon intended otherwise, but intention alone doesn't stop me from reading that progression in a far more unsettling fashion. It starts with this bit from Interlude at Bancroft Tower No. 1 in D Minor:

        "Is that all you're going to say?" Corwin persisted.  "What I
mean is... aren't you going to give me the usual speech about how I'm
a really great guy, and you like me a lot, and you hope we can still
be friends?"

That line of his? It reminds me of how Internet "Nice Guys" tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards her -- going out to spend time with just her, including extended trips with just of the two of them, behavior that's dating in all but name -- reads an awful lot like he's put her in the girlfriend zone, and he's taking advantage of her being in an emotionally vulnerable and isolated state (consciously or otherwise) to level up from "friend" to "love interest."

Alternatively, she's aware of what's going on with their not-dating, and that ... really doesn't let Corwin off the hook (much), and it also means that, by poly standards, she's cheating on Anthy.

Either way, it skeeves me the fuck out when their relationship goes from friendship to romance, because it reads to me as validating the Nice Guy victim complex at the very least, and perhaps also tacitly endorsing cheating.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-14, 02:48 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 02:49 PM (EDT)
 
>All of which rounds back to why the Corwin/Utena relationship (and the
>Corwin/Utena/Anthy triad) ultimately killed my ability to enjoy
>Symphony of the Sword. I get that Gryphon intended otherwise,
>but intention alone doesn't stop me from reading that progression in a
>far more unsettling fashion.

That's as may be, but upon careful introspection, I find that it does absolve me of any need to feel as if I've failed because you Don't Get It, particularly since at this point it's dawning on me that you're willfully Not Getting It out of some misplaced sense of obligation to Take a Stand. This is the wrong place to be doing that. It's like picketing a car dealership to protest abuses in the beef-cattle industry - makes no damn sense.

>It starts with this bit from
>Interlude at Bancroft Tower No. 1 in D Minor:

        "Is that all you're going to say?" Corwin persisted.  
"What I mean is... aren't you going to give me the usual speech about how I'm
a really great guy, and you like me a lot, and you hope we can still
be friends?"

>That line of his? It reminds me of how Internet
>"Nice Guys" tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards
>her -- going out to spend time with just her, including extended trips
>with just of the two of them, behavior that's dating in all but name
>-- reads an awful lot like he's
>put her in the girlfriend zone], and he's taking advantage of her being in
>an emotionally vulnerable and isolated state (consciously or
>otherwise) to level up from "friend" to "love interest."

All right, I'm going to take one more hack at this, and then I'm done with it: You are overanalyzing the fuck out of the entire thing. For one thing, the whole point of Corwin at that age, and indeed any age, is that when he says things that otherwise seem like they ought to involve weird buried-context ulterior-movie bullshit like the above, they don't. That's a recurring feature of his that I think a reasonably perceptive reader can't have missed... except possibly on purpose, because it's inconveniently out-of-line with her Purported Agenda Theory.

For instance, he asked her that in Bancroft Tower because she omitted it, and he was seriously concerned that, on top of failing at his first-ever attempt at romance, he'd broken a friendship in the process. His need to be assured that he hadn't, and his relief when that assurance was forthcoming, was exactly what it looked like. He's not putting on some kind of calculated, manipulative act. He's just a big-hearted, open-hearted kid in a completely unfamiliar situation, playing it by ear.

>Alternatively, she's aware of what's going on with their not-dating,
>and that ... really doesn't let Corwin off the hook (much), and it
>also means that, by poly standards, she's cheating on Anthy.

No. No, no, no, for fuck's sake. Did you not notice any of the places where one, the other, or both of them looks directly at this, or are you just ignoring them because they don't support your conspiracy theory? Between Monolith and Knights 3 inclusive, they both grapple with this apparent dichotomy several times, often in full view of one another. There's no secret agenda happening there, just two young people in a complicated situation, making shit up as they go along and trying to do the best they can without making themselves miserable. Jesus Christ, why has every relationship got to be a some kind of ruthless sub rosa zero-sum game to some people? Did I miss a memo? Are characters not allowed to just be in love any more?

>Either way, it skeeves me the fuck out when their relationship
>goes from friendship to romance, because it reads to me as
>validating the Nice Guy victim complex at the very least, and
>perhaps also tacitly endorsing cheating.

All of that is predicated on a frankly insulting assumption that Corwin's playing some kind of subtle, manipulative game, much like Akio's, with the mind and heart of a woman he loved before he even understood what that kind of love was, and that Utena would fall for that kind of thing twice. If you really think either of those scenarios is even possible, let alone likely, then you have never understood Thing One about the character or the story arc and I cannot help you any further with that. Good day, madam. I said good day!*

--G.
* Obligatory Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory reference to make it plain that I'm not completely serious about the furious dismissal part, except I kind of am.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Offsides
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Aug-08-14, 03:11 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #15
 
   >All right, I'm going to take one more hack at this, and then I'm done
>with it: You are overanalyzing the fuck out of the entire
>thing.
For one thing, the whole point of Corwin at that
>age, and indeed any age, is that when he says things that otherwise
>seem like they ought to involve weird buried-context ulterior-movie
>bullshit like the above, they don't. That's a recurring
>feature of his that I think a reasonably perceptive reader can't have
>missed... except possibly on purpose, because it's inconveniently
>out-of-line with her Purported Agenda Theory.

Not going to get into the bulk of this discussion, but I did want to comment on this. Personally, I have always interpreted Corwin to be one of those rare souls who not only can and should be taken at face value, but who essentially goes out of his way (so to speak) to remind you of that fact whenever possible. He doesn't just mean what he says, he is what he says. Other than a few clear occasions when he's scheming to surprise someone, he's simply incapable of doing otherwise (and even then, you know something's up even if you don't know what).

The problem with this is that there are so few people out there who actually behave like that, that many people are simply incapable of truly believing that anyone could be that way, even a fictional character. It's not that he's poorly written or inconsistent or any of the standard problems with a character that can make them unbelievable, it's that he's "too good to be true", so people are looking for the catch. The fact that there isn't one is irrelevant; either people will believe or they won't, and there's unfortunately nothing you can do about it.

I know this doesn't help your interpretation of success/failure, but if it makes you feel any better I think you succeeded.

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
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Aug-08-14, 05:47 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #16
 
   >It's not that he's poorly written

Eh, that's a separate discussion, and depends partly on how one defines "poorly written."

>or inconsistent or any
>of the standard problems with a character that can make them
>unbelievable, it's that he's "too good to be true", so people are
>looking for the catch.

Neil Gaiman once put it this way: "Life is always going to be stranger than fiction, because fiction has to be convincing and life doesn't."

Yes, this is actually a problem, at least for me; Corwin's supernatural gifts are actually more plausible to me than the idea that anyone could be ... well, as Gryph's spirited defense upthread states. In many ways, Corwin is too perfect -- he just isn't believable to me.

I don't have an agenda here; I'm saying that the relationship skeeved me out, both in its potential back when SotS started, and when it became canon. It was much later that I managed to articulate why.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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trboturtle2
Member since Jul-4-09
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Aug-08-14, 04:02 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #15
 
   Has it occured to some people that Gryphon and the other EPU writers are just trying to write good stories without any sort of an agenda?

As a writer, I do not sit down and say to myself, "I'm going to include this point from my political/socal agenda." I sit down and say, "What does this story need?" If a stance I agree with comes up in my story, I don't call attention to it. My stories are just that; I'm trying to entertain, not pushing any sort of position. I see no evidence the EPU staff are doing anything but writing complex stories, barrowing characters from vastly different series and wrapping them all togeter so they actually go together.

So, in those immortal words from MST3K: "It's really just a show, so you really should relax."

Craig

----------------------------
Writer for Battletech/Co-
author of Outcast Ops:
African Firestorm, Outcast
Ops: Red Ice, Outcast Ops:
Watchlist
, and Outcast
Ops: Shadow Government
.
All around semi-nice guy!
Really!!


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
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Aug-08-14, 05:54 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #17
 
   >As a writer, I do not sit down and say to myself, "I'm going to
>include this point from my political/socal agenda."

The problem with the above thought is that you've got some baseline, implicit assumptions and beliefs about how the world works, many of which you're likely not aware of. Everyone does; that's just part of the state of being human. That framework -- your acculturation, socialization, individual experience, your own brain chemistry -- informs everything you write.

I've talked about some major personal revelations and life changes I've gone through over the years, and they tended to make me pretty starkly aware of many of the above that formed my own mental landscape. Further, as an economist, I have a professional obligation to identify unstated assumptions as they pertain to various questions; economics, being a social science that tends to look at large groups of people, means that those sorts of things tend to be rather large.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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Terminus Est
Member since Nov-5-04
474 posts
Aug-08-14, 07:00 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #20
 
   ...You know, if you hate it this much, why are you still reading it? Or fighting about it, for that matter? Just curious. Your opinion and your hangups aren't going to change anything here. I'm not trying to be discouraging or an ass, but... well, sometimes someone has to state the obvious.


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laudre
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26. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #21
 
   >why are you still reading it?

... er, I'm not? As I've said repeatedly?

As for why I was still discussing it, above, was because Gryph expressed having second thoughts about it, though not for the reasons I've outlined.

The topic, at this point, has run its course, however.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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The Traitor
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41. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #26
 
   >>why are you still reading it?
>
>... er, I'm not? As I've said repeatedly?

Forgive the obvious response, but, um...

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

Pre-empting the riposte concerning my undisguised, heart-of-a-dying-sun intense loathing for RWBY with the brief reminder that this isn't a RWBY fan forum.


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Droken
Member since May-6-08
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Aug-08-14, 07:25 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #20
 
   >>As a writer, I do not sit down and say to myself, "I'm going to
>>include this point from my political/socal agenda."
>
>The problem with the above thought is that you've got some baseline,
>implicit assumptions and beliefs about how the world works, many of
>which you're likely not aware of. Everyone does; that's just part of
>the state of being human. That framework -- your acculturation,
>socialization, individual experience, your own brain chemistry --
>informs everything you write.


And therein lies your difficulty, I think. As you state just after this, you have over the past few years dealt with powerful personal revelations and adjustments, and those are informing how you interact with and interpret everything you read. From what you're saying, it sounds to me as though you have become not so much "starkly aware of" the baseline, implicit assumptions and beliefs of others, as you have become oversensitive to them. Like night-vision that you just can not turn off, even when having it on isn't practical.

-Droken

"If at first you don't succeed, bull-
riding is not for you."


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
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Aug-08-14, 09:19 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #22
 
   >you have become oversensitive

Wow, that's made me feel more like a woman on the Internet than anything else in the past week.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-14, 10:12 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #25
 
   >>you have become oversensitive
>
>Wow, that's made me feel more like a woman on the Internet than
>anything else in the past week.

One is loath to put words in someone else's fingers, but perhaps hypersensitized connotes a slightly less inadvertently judgmental shade of meaning. In this context, you certainly seem to be perceiving monsters where there are only shadows at this point.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Droken
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32. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #31
 
   Yes, that is what I was going for, thank you.

-Droken

"If at first you don't succeed, bull-
riding is not for you."


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-14, 10:04 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #20
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 10:04 PM (EDT)
 
>>As a writer, I do not sit down and say to myself, "I'm going to
>>include this point from my political/socal agenda."
>
>The problem with the above thought is that you've got some baseline,
>implicit assumptions and beliefs about how the world works, many of
>which you're likely not aware of. Everyone does; that's just part of
>the state of being human. That framework -- your acculturation,
>socialization, individual experience, your own brain chemistry --
>informs everything you write.

Yes, well, as you say, that's generally known as having a worldview. I'm not going to be lectured on what thoughtcrimes someone else may believe mine to contain.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Nova Floresca
Member since Sep-13-13
360 posts
Aug-08-14, 05:22 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 05:23 PM (EDT)
 
>
        "Is that all you're going to say?" Corwin persisted.  
>"What I
>mean is... aren't you going to give me the usual speech about how I'm
>a really great guy, and you like me a lot, and you hope we can still
>be friends?"

>
>That line of his? It reminds me of how
>Internet
>"Nice Guys" tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards
>her -- going out to spend time with just her, including extended trips
>with just of the two of them, behavior that's dating in all but name
>-- reads an awful lot like he's
>put
>her in the girlfriend zone, and he's taking advantage of her being in
>an emotionally vulnerable and isolated state (consciously or
>otherwise) to level up from "friend" to "love interest."

To quote Freud, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". You seem to be reading this scene as if it's propaganda, and it's not. Neither Utena nor Corwin picked up an Advanced Gender Relations elective during their time in school, and because of that, they didn't realize that their relationship was inappropriate and so they went ahead and did what worked for them.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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Matrix Dragon
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23. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 08:53 PM (EDT)
 
>
        "Is that all you're going to say?" Corwin persisted.  
>"What I
>mean is... aren't you going to give me the usual speech about how I'm
>a really great guy, and you like me a lot, and you hope we can still
>be friends?"

>
>That line of his? It reminds me of how Internet
>"Nice Guys" tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards
>her -- going out to spend time with just her, including extended trips
>with just of the two of them, behavior that's dating in all but name
>-- reads an awful lot like he's put
>her in the girlfriend zone, and he's taking advantage of her being in
>an emotionally vulnerable and isolated state (consciously or
>otherwise) to level up from "friend" to "love interest."

...

Or, and work with me on this, he's worried that, by telling her how he feels, he's destroyed the chances of a friendship continuing, because the whole romance thing is a risky line to cross, regardless of age?

It's pretty simple to see. All you have to do is remember that most guys aren't 'Internet Nice Guys', and it's been pretty clearly established that Corwin is NOT AN ASSHOLE.

You're acting like Tumblr. That is not a good thing.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
428 posts
Aug-08-14, 09:21 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #23
 
   >You're acting like Tumblr. That is not a good thing.

I'm a real girl! I'm being mansplained at!


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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Matrix Dragon
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Aug-08-14, 09:36 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #27
 
   >>You're acting like Tumblr. That is not a good thing.
>
>I'm a real girl! I'm being mansplained at!

... Not sure if you're joking or being serious...

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Proginoskes
Member since Dec-3-09
153 posts
Aug-10-14, 12:45 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #29
 
   My guess would be "both".


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
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Aug-10-14, 08:13 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #36
 
   >My guess would be "both".

Think of it like a zen koan.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
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5. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #1
 
   And y'all chewed me out for aggression. =]

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But
I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
942 posts
Aug-13-14, 12:24 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #1
 
   Man, I wish I had decided to emerge from my self-imposed isolation a week earlier, because these two threads have been awesome.

(That's not sarcasm, by the way. I love arguing and literary criticism so much, you guys, you don't even know.)

>B) She might have been lying. She does that sometimes. ...
>Quite a lot, actually, when she's trying to accomplish something that
>she doesn't feel she has time or mental bandwidth to explain to the
>muggles.

In all fairness, Ben... I suggested this as a possibility some time ago, and you had some deeply uncharitable things to say about my views of women if I thought she was being manipulative in this instance.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-13-14, 12:32 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #38
 
   >>B) She might have been lying. She does that sometimes. ...
>>Quite a lot, actually, when she's trying to accomplish something that
>>she doesn't feel she has time or mental bandwidth to explain to the
>>muggles.
>
>In all fairness, Ben... I suggested this as a possibility some time
>ago, and you had some deeply uncharitable things to say about
>my views of women if I thought she was being manipulative in this
>instance.

No, I had deeply uncharitable things to say about your assertion that it was in some way "awesome".

I think it's a bit loathsome. I'm just acknowledging that she may have done it anyway.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
942 posts
Aug-13-14, 12:59 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #39
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-14 AT 01:04 PM (EDT)
 
>No, I had deeply uncharitable things to say about your assertion that
>it was in some way "awesome".
>
>I think it's a bit loathsome. I'm just acknowledging that she may
>have done it anyway.

Ah! I see. That makes things clearer.

I would, in fact, agree with you that it would be a bit loathsome. I just don't think that would preclude it also being awesome at the same time.

It's like... mmm. Take the Anthy-on-Nanami action from the source materiel. What Anthy does to Nanami is kind of petty and cruel; Nanami is a deeply damaged adolescent girl who lashes out because she's emotionally traumatized, and Anthy is a deeply powerful witch many times Nanami's age who can read her like a book. So messing with Nanami's head the way Anthy does is kind of messed up.

It's also awesome, though! She tricked Nanami into thinking she'd laid an egg! She sent her on a maybe-real, maybe-hallucinated trek across the world in search of a body-switching spice, sent surfing elephants to harass Nanami during said trek, and then had her familiar trip the girl at the finish line. That is choice.

It helps that she isn't real, of course. Anthy-the-character can do stuff that is, narratively, pretty awesome, but that reflect less than well on Anthy-the-person.

I feel the same way about her brother, really. Akio is deeply loathsome in all his forms, but he's also impressive. He did a lot of stuff that left my jaw hanging slack going "Damn, yo. The writers know what they are doing here."

TLDR: something can be narratively awesome without it necessarily being a positive or laudable thing for the people involved. Well, at least to me. I'm not the arbiter of all things awesome.

EDITED TO ADD: Also, I am always excited when you let Anthy's ruthless side shine through. I love me some moral ambiguity in my protagonists and my narratives. I know that's not really your thing on a large scale (and there's nothing wrong with that!) but it totally is mine. :)

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Proginoskes
Member since Dec-3-09
153 posts
Aug-07-14, 01:40 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #0
 
   >This reminds me of people who object to polyamory.
>
>Not the practice, the word.
>
>Because it mixes Greek (poly-) and Latin (-amory) roots. It should
>(they say, tongue firmly planted in cheek) be polyeros or multiamory.
>
>In any event "heteronormative" shares similar logic in its derivation
>as homophobia, transphobia, cissexism,
>transmisogyny, and other terms we've had to create, where the
>omitted components are understood.

I know what the words mean, and regret their necessity. I was in fact mostly joking, and attempting to subtly suggest that Gryph's syllable-count-based complaint was similarly ridiculous. (My complaint is sincere, from a philological perspective (it makes much more sense than complaining about mixing Greek stems and Latin roots, since the Romans themselves were guilty of that), but I do recognize that from a practical standpoint it's absurd.)

>Anthy's "child of love" bit is very heteronormative,

Gryph's already touched on this, but I'll try to clarify things by explaining what I think went through Anthy's mind to bring that scene about. You see, her reluctance towards ovifusion is a complete fabrication, designed to facilitate Plan: Complete the Circle. She took advantage of the fact that many people unthinkingly accept heteronormative hang-ups to create an excuse to ask Utena for permission to bed Corwin. Her main motive was to introduce the idea that eros for Corwin takes nothing away from their marriage.

> the many triads that start off as a lesbian couple
>and then add a guy,

All… two of them? I mean, there haven't been that many lesbian couples in UF to begin with. I can only think of three in SotS, and two have added a male, so I suppose you're justified in saying "most lesbian couples in SotS become ffm triads", but it's awfully thin data to be drawing conclusions from. (I deliberately discounted Liza Shustal and Azalynn; they were both clearly bi before they entered their relationship. Besides, for them, Kurt Wagner's sex is an afterthought at best: his blue fur and tail is what caught their interest.)

>that Anthy refers to Utena as her husband
>(reflecting a heteronormative expectation of butch/femme pairings in
>lesbian relationship)

Gryph treats this as a side-effect of Utena being The Prince. I would actually agree with you – this could be a sign of heteronormative thinking – if it were a part of a larger pattern. But the rest of the pattern doesn't exist where I can see it. No such dynamic exists between Liza and Azalynn, Kate and Juri, Amanda Dessler and Rina Dragonaar, or Juniper and Gunnr.

>Utena, as portrayed in Symphony, seems to be closer to a 0 on
>the Kinsey scale

So she says, and I concede that she's not your typical 3. I have very little knowledge of the source, but I can't recall anything from SotS to disprove the idea that she's mostly asexual. In Utena's case, philia is prerequisite to eros, and she doesn't seem to have much of anything in the "base lust" department. In either case (3 or x), her claims of being almost 0 could easily owe more to a heteronormative cultural background than her own feelings.


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Gryphonadmin
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7. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #6
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-14 AT 01:59 AM (EDT)
 
>I deliberately discounted Liza
>Shustal and Azalynn; they were both clearly bi before they entered
>their relationship.

Azalynn would be a bit miffed that you're pigeonholing her as bisexual. That's so... geminormative.

>But the rest of the pattern doesn't exist where I can see
>it. No such dynamic exists between Liza and Azalynn, Kate and Juri,
>Amanda Dessler and Rina Dragonaar, or Juniper and Gunnr.

If such a dynamic did exist between Amanda and Rina, one expects it would run counter to the expectations their job titles would imply. I'm just saying.

I don't have a lot of time for that dominance-and-submission business, though, frankly. I suppose that's probably vanillanormative of me.

>>Utena, as portrayed in Symphony, seems to be closer to a 0 on
>>the Kinsey scale
>
>So she says, and I concede that she's not your typical 3.

Somewhere between 1 and 2, I should say, if only because Anthy would probably take exception to her husband making love to her being filed as "incidental homosexuality". :)

>I have very
>little knowledge of the source, but I can't recall anything from SotS
>to disprove the idea that she's mostly asexual.

... Wait, what?

>In Utena's
>case, philia is prerequisite to eros, and she doesn't
>seem to have much of anything in the "base lust" department.

In fairness to Utena, that doesn't indicate that she's somehow not a sexual being. (In Dìqiú alone, there's a certain clearing up on the mountain road outside Republic City that would beg to differ with your assessment there. And a suite at the Phoenix House Hotel. And a dark corner on the observation deck of the Harmony Tower. And one of the staterooms aboard the Mirai. And the ensuite shower in the big house on Air Temple Island. Among other places. :) It indicates that she's wary of "base lust", and for very good reason. As a teenager, she got burned twice by responding to the "oh 'ello" system call, once incredibly badly, once just to the tune of a really unpleasant evening reliving the first time. Even the dumbest animal eventually learns not to stick its nose in a fire, but her not sticking her nose in fires doesn't mean she somehow can't perceive them, to thoroughly belabor the metaphor.

Besides, how would you "disprove the idea that she's mostly asexual" by looking at stories where she's in stable relationships? Count up the number of scenes in which she's not looking at someone other than her partners and thinking, Yes please, I'll have some of that? That's not really her style. Doesn't mean she's asexual. I mean what?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Proginoskes
Member since Dec-3-09
153 posts
Aug-07-14, 02:03 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 10:54 AM (EDT)
 
This is what I get for posting without a sanity check.

Edit for clarity: That is to say, this is what I deserve to get for posting without doing a sanity check.


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Gryphonadmin
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20001 posts
Aug-08-14, 11:00 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #8
 
   >This is what I get for posting without a sanity check.
>
>Edit for clarity: That is to say, this is what I deserve to get for
>posting without doing a sanity check.

Well, hey, at least the odd assertion in your post only baffled me, it didn't enrage and insult me. That's a win in this thread! :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Dwaggy
Member since Oct-13-13
15 posts
Aug-07-14, 06:05 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #7
 
   Oi. I never understand when people pull things like these stories/situations apart. I literally look at it as 'this is the way it was' and don't worry about the source material. I mean- yeah any from an outside story may start with a particular thing- but this universe changes things in good ways. Honestly I love the relationship the Trinity has. It's awesome and well done- and I truly don't see why it should be any different. I've reread all of symphony manymanymany times. It only feels weird/awkward knowing that they are worrying more than they need to.

Not sure if I've said this before- the symphony stories rock. Thank you for writing them.

Music isn't always harmony.


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
428 posts
Aug-08-14, 01:42 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #6
 
   >I have very
>little knowledge of the source,

The source doesn't support Utena being any degree of asexual, but it does give plenty of reasons for her to be skittish about physical and emotional intimacy, and to have some trust issues.

>but I can't recall anything from SotS
>to disprove the idea that she's mostly asexual.

In the text itself, I don't think there's much grounds to claim that she's asexual specifically, as opposed to the trust and intimacy issues above. Certainly, what I recall of the Symphony material that addressed her history on Cephiro (pre-Symphony), seem to support that interpretation, rather than asexuality.

>In Utena's
>case, philia is prerequisite to eros,

The term for that is demisexual. It's a relatively new term, as far as I know, and has emerged because, like "pansexual" as opposed to "bisexual," or the -romantic suffix (e.g. heteroromantic, homoromantic) in addition to the -sexual suffix, human sexuality is really really complicated and not remotely binary (even on multiple axes). (And that doesn't even touch on gender identity, which is no less complex but only tangentially related to sexual and romantic attraction and desire.)

>and she doesn't
>seem to have much of anything in the "base lust" department.

See above about the intimacy issues; while it's been some time since I last read the stuff from before I gave up on Symphony, I got the impression that her recalcitrance had more to do with the way she was used and abused by Akio and Kouga (as I recall, though it's been some time since I watched RGU in its entirety) and, well, Anthy still being out there.

>In either
>case (3 or x), her claims of being almost 0 could easily owe more to a
>heteronormative cultural background than her own feelings.

This is a bit of dissonance between RGU and SotS; in the anime, as I recall, being bi- or pansexual was the rule; the show was not remotely ambiguous about Kouga and Akio, and only somewhat ambiguous about those two and Saionji. Similarly, girls crushing on other girls (if not much more) was pretty routine -- Utena and Juri, IIRC, both had substantial female fan clubs. (There were a few people who had only a single target of attraction, at least functionally speaking -- Nanami's fixation on Kouga, for example -- but that doesn't invalidate the general impression. Nor does Miki's apparent asexuality.) SotS alluding to Cephiro having some degree of baseline homophobia in the cultural background is a bit at odds with that.

Some of the RGU bit can be explained by Japanese cultural attitudes towards adolescent sexuality, in that "experimenting" with the same sex (as we'd call it here in the West) is an accepted and normal part of growing up. (This is more true for girls than boys, mind.)


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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Vorticity
Member since Feb-6-12
92 posts
Aug-08-14, 09:24 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #13
 
   If you have watched Revolutionary Girl Utena and you are still looking to find labels for people's sexuality, then you have learned nothing.

-- ∇×V


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
428 posts
Aug-09-14, 02:09 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #28
 
   >If you have watched Revolutionary Girl Utena and you are still
>looking to find labels for people's sexuality, then you have learned
>nothing.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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Matrix Dragon
Charter Member
1759 posts
Aug-08-14, 08:57 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #6
 
   >(I deliberately discounted Liza
>Shustal and Azalynn; they were both clearly bi before they entered
>their relationship. Besides, for them, Kurt Wagner's sex is an
>afterthought at best: his blue fur and tail is what caught their
>interest.)

That, and his love for swashbuckling might just outdo Liza. Let's keep in mind that when he was dead (In Modern Marvel Comics, not UF), Kurt was travelling the afterlife in a pirate ship fighting demon pirates, usually with three swords and lots of glorious banter. And no one was at all surprised.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Peter Eng
Charter Member
1610 posts
Aug-10-14, 02:11 AM (EST)
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34. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #0
 
   >The belief is that, to the woman,
>the man is a friend (often expressed in such terms as "just a friend"
>or "friend zone" which carry the implicit assumption that anything
>other than a romantic and/or sexual relationship with her is,
>ultimately, an inherently lesser and unworthy thing)

Which would be a problem if Corwin had behaved in any way like that. Except that he never tried to cash in his nice-guy tokens, or showed any signs of acting like he had any such things. Judging by the narrative, life would have been good enough for him if all he ever did with Utena was go out for dinner on Fridays. Anthy practically had to stuff them in a closet and lock the door to get that to change.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
351 posts
Aug-10-14, 03:14 AM (EST)
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35. "RE: And then another day (one day, continued)"
In response to message #34
 
   >Which would be a problem if Corwin had behaved in any way like that.
>Except that he never tried to cash in his nice-guy tokens, or showed
>any signs of acting like he had any such things. Judging by the
>narrative, life would have been good enough for him if all he ever did
>with Utena was go out for dinner on Fridays. Anthy practically had to
>stuff them in a closet and lock the door to get that to change.

As was pointed out, there's a repeated theme of Utena or Corwin deciding things were 'good enough', right up to the point where Anthy does push them together and they realise they can have more than 'good enough'.

D.


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